Tripod Center Vote
 

It would be interesting to see what the general consensus is.

If you are not satisfied with the four standard answers or want to express additional comments, please post them below.

For Old Times Sake
 

It would be valuable to review the wealth of material readily available on this site prior to drawing your conclusions. I said this is a non-issue because the debate has been brought up before, and here we go again. I'm glad that Brian is making this subject one of his "pillars" :) for teaching, and hopefully it is helping golfers. Homer knew the strengths and weakness of each option and so does Lynn. I'm not going to rehash so here you go.

For old times sake -

LynnBlakeGolf Forums > The Lesson Tee > The Golfing Machine - Advanced > Base of the Neck vs. Through the Head "centers"
http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=2008

LynnBlakeGolf Forums > The Lesson Tee > The Golfing Machine - Advanced > Homer's two gifts... and two pivot centers
http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=2025

Another option is doing a search on "tripod".

Bagger

Good job Bagger. I like that. Some good adminin'.

Cause if you don't know the issues.....and vote anyway.....it's just a blind vote.

...

I think the poll is very valid.

Pp4
 

My current perception is that I cannot activate PP4 enough if I do not move my head sideways, but I want avoid moving the base of my neck - or rather the tab on inside back of the collar of my shirt.

And I love feeling a ton of PP4 pressure.

Is base of neck in the front(bowtie) and top of spine(shirt label) in the back....???????

The Head is the forehead, chin, the eyes?

What is Chossing through the Head ?...LOL

Just Kidding...

What does through the Head mean?

Is that different than the head?

Stick a ball on the end of a pencil. Tilt the pencil. Rotate the pencil between the fingers. This is NOT how the spine works in a golf swing. Although it seems to be.

Vertebrae allows the spine to re-position itself during the pivot. For some, less or more than others. This allows for a tripod.

A head that rotates to the right and left is no big deal- it is still centered on the tripod.

My camera tripod head moves 3 ways but it always centered over the legs.

This argument has wedged distance between many. The name calling is childish. Loyalties tested- over what? An inch or so of a centered head rotating to the side? Do you sway? Of course not. You stay centered over your legs. This ain't Ballard.

I got this idea from "another instructor" on "another site"....

His view is that it basically works like this when you turn around your spine:



The stick is in the BACK of the rocket....(just like the spine runs up the back of your torso and head)....

Now spin the rocket mentally....the stick is in the back....

...

The argument is that it basically gives you "something" to turn around (your SPINE) rather than nothing and also that it makes it easier to tilt in the downswing.

I think I get you Birdie Man,
but in this analogy you would have to turn the spine to move the body-and the head.
If the stick were fixed and the body of the rocket turned around the stick and the red cap on the rocket was able to move (or not)independently of the stick and the "body"of the rocket ,what would happen if we just rotated the body around the stick?
The red cap (head )WOULD NOT MOVE.
If the body and cap moved together ,the eyes would be facing in the direction of the chest.
Be useful if you could expand on this issue,in case I have missed something!:eyes:

Some More References
 

Here's some more helpful references-

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=2906

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=2090

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=461

Bagger

can we change the question?
 

Can we change a word in the question from OR to AND, so I can respond? I like to have options...as Mr. Kelley intended.

Homer did give recommendations, which I will follow. But, in the end, he wanted you to pick something that stayed still. If you use the head, your eyes can see more under the ball if the head moves, giving visual feedback. Thus, 2-0-A-#1 does not say a stationary neck.

There's a minimal difference in using either application, but the base of the neck allows the eyes to move. If they move, how much is too much? When does it become a sway? How can your eyes warn you upon achieving too much movement? Is it at 2.7 or 2.8 centimeters? Your guess is as good as mine.

Just keep something still so the left shoulder (center) has an additional center around which to operate, and you'll be better for it. Is that too difficult?

Those who have voted, if their perspective is right or wrong, would seem to have an argument with Mr. Kelley.

Where should stillness, or balance or stability be felt? How does the player know when they have it?

DRW

Of course you can have options :).

I think it also depends what the student is actually doing. A student moving his head 12 inches back will require a slightly different message to a student that has a reverse pivot.

Per 1-L-2, the head is allowed to turn (but not sway or bob), but surely this rotation will change the way your eyes look at the ball. Doesn't this make the "eyes argument" obsolete, as I do not know of any great golfers who does not turn their head slightly on the backstroke? Unless, of course, you can tell the difference between a head turn and a head sway by using your eyes, which I certainly can't.

It's a shame Homer didn't add anything about the eyes, even in the 7th edition. Maybe he expected us to work it out.

I Can't find that choice of answer either :( .

Can one pre-turn their head at setup?

Exactly. The 'big idea' is a stable center of balance and motion and exactly where that is can depend on the number of accumulators in use and what components are at play.

What matters is the center of the circle and its relationship to the plane/ground/low point remaining in control for the shot/result you intend.

Jack
 

I think there was some guy named Jack that did and won a FEW times. Jack's coach grabbed his golden locks and said, "now hit it."

This does seem to be an old arguement.

I can honestly state that the majority of photos I have seen do not support either position.

I also wonder what the definition of the base of neck is? To me this is a point on the spine that the shoulder move up and down from, the head moves or support head movement side to side without tilting the spine.

Isn't the ideal motion and alignment to be that the motion is around the spine between the hips and shoulders?

Head movement caused by the pivot should not be considered a head in motion. Head movement independent of the pivot would be a fault or potential fault requiring adjustments during the golf stroke. Intentional head movement is often associated with bobbing and swaying, not the only cuases for this.

Minimal movement does support a stable platform and maintaining balance. This inturns supports the golf stroke alignments and minimizes any adjustments that need to be made.

Could be wrong, but back in Jack's day the pre-turn head was an option to raising the chin, both allowed the shoulder to pass without the head getting in the way.

my eyes move in the sockets
 

Homer mentioned the eyes. And, I believe it was in the tapes from one of the Master's classes. It's a shame he didn't write about it and put it in the 7th.

You might not see it. But, let's not throw a "surely" out there just yet. You're a great ball striker, so I know you have the ability to perceive minute differences. If you say you don't see the difference, I have to believe you.

I find a very big visual difference in what the eyes perceive when the head is swaying versus the head turning. Most have the ability to move their eyes in the sockets...like this: :confused1 If your eyes stayed fixed in the sockets, I could see that it would be hard to differentiate. I know your eyes do not.

I can focus my eyes on the tiny power light on my computer monitor and turn my head. As I turn my head, my eyes stay focused on the light. So, my eyes turn to the left as my head turns to the right.

When swaying, even the smallest amount, I notice the sway. There is a visual difference.

An optometrist will have to describe the way the eyes triangulate to see the differences. It's not my field. But when you sway to the right, the right eye has to be looking down the hypotenuse of a right triangle. And, your left eye would have to be looking down the shorter side. Your head would only have to move the distance from the center of your nose to the pupil of your left eye, for it to become a right triangle.

So, “obsolete” is a little harsh.

This whole "eye" discussion is interesting...but it certainly seems way out of proportion to the importance of other swing principles...Duval can shoot a 59 and he isn't even looking at the ball at impact (at least before he messed with his swing)...his head was already turned and looking down the fairway...I think Annika does the same thing and she isn't too bad a player.

I agre hg. It is just that some like to agrue. Loudest guys win.
Shame.

Look into my eyes, not around the eyes but into my eyes...3, 2, 1, you're a chimp
 

Sorry, I think I understand what you're getting at, but...The eyes needs to move in their sockets regardless of whether your head is turning or swaying if you want to look at the same spot. In your above example about focusing the eyes on the light of your computer, the eyes have to turn left (albeit different amounts) whether your head sways or turns. Actually, the amount of eye movement needed when you turn you head is less compared to swaying.

I'm sure you know when you sway your head, but I'm just a little skeptical that it's because you can sense how much your eyes have moved in their sockes. :eyes:

field of vision
 

It's not the amount of eye movement. It's all the changes in your field of vision, if you move.

Back on point... the more stationary the head, the less things change as you view them. The eyes help in this area.

The good thing about this site is that intelligent people can agree to disagree or find common ground. It doesn't have to become a urinating contest. We know that there are plenty of places to do that.

Sergio's Swing Center Tripod
 

The current (September 2006) issue of Golf Digest features a swing sequence of Sergio Garcia, 2005 PGA TOUR leader in its most enviable statistic, Greens in Regulation.

If I'm not mistaken -- you be the judge -- Sergio is using the Homer Kelley-recommended Head Pivot Center (as opposed to its perfectly acceptable alternative, the Point-Between-the-Shoulders Pivot Center).

As has been the Lynn Blake Golf position from the beginning, the important point is not so much which Center a player chooses to use, but that he (or she) consciously selects (and ultimately relegates to subconcious control) at least some point at the top of the Pivot to stabilize its motion. But it is interesting, isn't it, that last year's greatest Ballstriker apparently has chosen the Head Pivot Center. :)

Ben Hogan's Pivot Center
 

Here's another pretty good 'stick' who, as his Golf Stroke matured, became more and more aware of the importance of a stable Pivot Swing Center.

Buffalo Billy's Pivot Center
 

Here's a look at Billy Casper's action. For several years running in his career, there was much talk about The Big Three -- Nicklaus, Palmer, and Player -- but there was really a Big One...

Buffalo Billy.

Check out his Head Positon at the Top of each sequence...first the Wedge and then the Long Iron. Is it Centered? If so, that would be a Head Pivot Center for one of the great players of his time.

Thanks for the effort Yoda! Finally some pictures that seem to support the Head Pivot Center.

It would be cool if someone out there has the Photoshop skills to impose two identical Tripods onto the Sergio pics.

Should note that the two frames are of different sizes, the one on the right, is larger.

"Hello World" -- Lynn Blake For Homer Kelley (In Absentia)
 

Damn, Martee, this "Kool-Aid" position from last year's greatest Ballstriker? Who, at 303.3 yards, was also 10th in Driving Distance?

I hate it when this happens!

:laughing9

How about ole Billy Boy throwing the clubface at the ball with his 10-2-D Kung Fu Grip??? His follow through looks Furykie Zingerie.

Sorry off topic but couldn't help noticing a D-Grip Brotherin!

Some do...Some don't..Here's one that does!!!

what about lower part of spine?
 

The picture of Sergio illustrates the pivot center, however my question pertains to the tailbone part of the spine. What movement, if any, of the tailbone takes place in the backswing? Does preturning the right hip involve making sure the tailbone is set? Appropriate chapter where this is discussed?

The Pivot is a two-way street -- back and through. What is the big deal of keeping the head in the center with very little axis tilt to the Top if you're just going to have to add a lot more axis tilt and move the head to the right on the way back to the ball, as Casper obviously does in the sequence on page 124 - 125. His head is almost over the inside of his right foot in the bottom left photo on p. 125.

My 2 cents.

I voted for (d) and here's why:

The spine is one continuous member; it is not seperated at the base of the neck. The head and base of the neck are one in the same IMO. The head contains all the sensing and monitoring abilities.

Head Tripod Centre most resembles machine construction pricinples. This is what TGM is about IMO. It dosen't consider physical limitations-nor should it. I agree that its OPTIMAL (essential) not MANDATORY (imperative).

As we've seen, one can illustrate almost every conceivable idea (right or wrong) about the golf swing using a professional's photos/sequences. This IMO only demonstrates that certain individuals possess talent most of us will never realize. Ever watched Jeff Healy play guitar?

CW

Billy Casper's "Downstroke Sway" -- Fact Or Illusion?
 

In the Billy Casper Long-Iron sequence of post #27 above, did his Head Sway? Or did his Right Foot Slide? :think:

For the answer, compare the Stance Width in the Release photo (the first at the top of page 125) with the Follow-Through and Finish photos at the bottom.

Long-time followers know that Billy's Full Stroke is characterized by a pronounced slide of his Right Foot during Release. That pronounced slide of the Foot (as motivated by the Hip Slide) may have been motivated by Billy's extremely Turned Left Hand in the Grip. Or it might simply be the result of personal preference. In any event, the "parallel to the Delivery Line" slide of both Hip and Foot is extremely compatible with his Turned Left Hand and "shut" Clubface technique.

For an example of a Head Pivot Center without the excessive Hip Slide and accordingly, without the excessive Foot Slide, see the Hogan sequence in post #26. With his neutral Grip and Vertical-to-the-ground Flat Left Wrist during the Follow-Through, Ben's Head is Centered both at the Top and at Impact.

Or, check out Casper's Pitch Shot sequence, where the momentum of the shorter Stroke is not sufficient to generate the excessive Hip and Foot Slides of his Full Stroke.

The bottom line is that the Head Pivot Center does not require that the Head move well back toward the Right Foot in order for the Hip Slide to effect Axis Tilt. In fact, by definition, it prohibits it.

Remember, TGM does not mandate a fixed Pivot Center. However. if you forgo its advantage, you will, in the words of Homer Kelley, "have to pay the price." For those who would utilize a Pivot Center, all that is required is that "some point on the body be kept stationary throughout the Stroke to limit the motion." He gave us specifically two options: the Head (including its Pivot-on-the-neck capability per 1-L #2) and the point-between-the-shoulders. He recommended the Head Center but in no way mandated it (2-H). So, pick whichever Center you want, and then...

Keep it as still as your own humanity and golfing skill allows.

In my opinion, when compared to the background trees, the head moves a lot.

Second Takes
 

But maybe not quite as much as you thought when comparing it with his Right Foot...right, Bob? :)

Personally, I see little Sway (3-F-7-D), but I do detect a slight Bob (3-F-7-C). Bobbing results from movement in the Back or Knees or both. With good players, that movement is almost always the result of positioning the Head at Address slightly higher than it will be at Impact. Thus, Bobbing becomes a necessary compensation.

Why do they do this? My guess is that, for the most part...

They don't know there is an alternative.

Design Center
 

Great post, Millrat. Probably the most sense anybody's made of this so far.

Sharp analysis Boss!!! This resonated particularly with ole Buckethead because of the 10-2-D grip.

Going a lil' deeper . . . As a result of the Turned Left Hand the hands must go forward deeper into the release interval before executing the hinge action.






Is this also the reason we see Lee Buck slide so much deeper with his legs too?

I know that some have debated the side to side movement of Buck's head . . . But the most pronounced movement of his head was DOWNWARD.

Thanks Yoda. I think that washes away many misconceptions of you disliking the base of the neck Pivot Center (or "point-between-the-shoulders" as you put it).

I have one more question. Does that mean if a student comes to you without the concept of a Pivot Center, you will arbitarily teach him the Head Pivot Center since it's recommended by Homer? Or could you teach him to use a base of the neck Pivot Center depending on his current motion.

You may find something for consideration in 7-16.

DRW