Ted Fort 10-5-E, 2-J-3 Visual Equivalents
 

Saw it for my own eyes very good....different until you stand on the closed plane line and the Angle of Approach Procedure...Teddy Ballgame showed me the visual equivalents with two hoops on top of each other..the hitter sees a steeper than normal circle and in relation to his eyes it is a circle that appears to be a straight line out to right field.... if you stood on the 10-5-A plane line you'd say the swing was inside then steep...but standing on the 10-5-E Plane Line..it looks on plane to right field...really cool

straight line blurr
 

Covering the 10-5-E makes the geometry look a little crazy when viewing it from a "normal" (10-5-A) camera position, doesn't it? If the plane line rotates, so must the camera angle. As seldom as Hitting has been taught in the past, I would wager that even less often has the camera angle been changed.

Indeed - perspective matters so much!

Certainly many fail to 'see' the equivalents for the simple reason that they don't shift their perspective, which is always looking 'down' on the tilted plane's surface.

Love the visual of the hoops Ted - outstanding way to look at it ;) Sure to be a 'hit'!

Ted or David,

It would be a great learning experience for us if you can post some photos of this.

Thanks!

I did not have down the line only face on caddie view......Teddy? you got some lookin down the 10-5-E?

If I get a break tomorrow...
 

If I have a chance in between lessons tomorrow, I'll see if I can get it done. I'll do my best to make time. It creates a really different look, once you move the camera.

I had dinner with a couple of TGM'ers and we were talking about camera angles. One of the teachers said that he sent three pictures of him swinging to a group of well respected teachers on "the list". He asked each of them to critique them. One was laid off, one was on plane, and one was across the line. So each of the teachers went into full descriptions of the swings that they didn't like.

The pictures were all taken at the same time, same swing, with three different cameras, from three different angles, using a 10-5-A plane.

Camera too far to the right = club across the line
Camera on plane = club on plane
Camera too far to the left = club laid off

A point on which he failed to elaborate was the use of 10-5-E.

Camera too far to the right = club WAY across the line
Camera on plane = club across the line
Camera too far to the left = club on plane

The story has been submitted to a major magazine, and has not been run, as of last month.

Boyz . . . How about y'all postin' up a sequence of Nuke Hittin' and Grandmasterflex of Chapter 10 su . . su . . . Swangin'?

That would be an interesting study . . .

I have to believe that the 5th edition has the bestest of the best on this here topic y'all are marinating. 2-J-3 in the 5th is the best on the visual equivalents and plane line equivalents.

D . . . what did you feed Nuke down yonder? No saladz or nothing right? Taters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damn 12...... why is this post so doggone funny to me??? It's after midnite.... and I look at that pic with your caption..... and I am dyin laughin!!!

CG

You know about Briscoe Darlin' then right?

Nuke ate Pizzer, Loin, and Drive Thru...we didn't have time for any "Pig".....

Camera Angles, 10-5-A versus 10-5-E
 

I had a couple of minutes at lunch to do this, so I hope it makes the point. I had to hurry; I had someone waiting.

You can get a perspective in how the camera angle changed by looking at my left foot. On the 10-5-A camera angle (on left), you can see more of my left foot. On the 10-5-E camera angle (on right), you can see less. The picture on the right has the camera looking down the plane that points out to right field.

Understand that the pictures are comparisons: 1&2, 3&4, and 5&6.

Teddy...two camera angles of the same swing using 2 different cameras?....

one camera
 

Not the same swing. I had one camera to use and no time. But, I did one swing, moved it to the angle of approach, and shot another. When I have more time, I'll do the two camera gig.

Ted, this is a good time for me to clear something up that has been confusing me. I believe that I had read in previour posts that you like to set up a little open, is that open to your 10-5-E plane line? And would this give the look that your feet(maybe whole body?) was square to the 10-5-A line as seen by somebody standing directly behind you? Hope this question makes sense.

Tim

10-5-e
 

My intent here was to use the Closed-Closed, with the idea to match the picture in the book. I do prefer to use the Closed-Open, in most of my play as it is one of the stance variations possible when using 10-5-E. I find that the Open stance restricts my stroke and enables me to stop at Top. I prefer to keep it as short as possible for all clubs. If I find myself taking it back too far, I find it increasingly difficult to sustain the thrust and the Loading changes. Even in taking these two videos, I found myself taking it back much farther that the position from which I like to play. In using the Closed-Closed, I find my hips are able to turn too freely.

With regard to your question, in 10-5-0 he says that "the second term refers to the Stance Line (Feet only) and denotes the relation of each Line to the Line of Flight." I play best from Closed-Open to Closed-Square. As a personal preference, I don't like the Closed-Closed.

Is that clear as mud? ;)

Actually that helps a great deal, thanks Ted. A couple of other things that are still murky for me, I believe that it is mentioned that in Hitting one should used a progressivly closed clubface at address for longer and longer shots, I understand the rationale but closed compared to what? the plane line?

Also, which plane angle do you prefer to use in your pattern? Turned shoulder (10-6-B)?

Thanks for your patience Ted.

Tim

closed clubface
 

No worries. I happy to help, when I can.

The Clubhead has a Line of Flight. And, the ball has a Line of Flight, which is dependant on Clubface. The ball always leaves at a right angle to the Clubface, so the Clubface must be square to the ball Line of Flight at separation, not the 10-5-E Plane Line.

It's a dilemma for the novice Hitter, as most want to keep the Clubface square to the Plane Line. Even if they start correctly, they'll steer to match the two Lines of Flight. It seems rather instinctive.

And, yes, I do use 10-6-B.

Dr. Putahurtinonit . . . FANTASTIC PICS AND GROUND BREAKING THREAD!!!!
 

This thread is AMAZING! It's unbelievable how a change in prespective can demonstrate something that is so subtle that most gloss right over it when reading the book.

Two additional points to be explored . . .

1. Ted . . . do you think we could get a demonstration of the 10-5-E line versus the 10-5-A line from an OVERHEAD PERSPECTIVE? I think this would clearly show a definite relationship to the on-plane right forearm. And help people see the geometry.

2. We spoke awhile back about a geometric relationship between the 10-5-A line and the 10-5-E line . . . are you prepared to present us with your thesis? I would love to see it and I think it would go a long way to getting people to understand all this "how far out to right field" and "no visual equivalent to a visual equivalent" stuff.

I placed a portion of your post in bold . . . I think this is something that we all could benefit from by a bit more expansion on the subject . . . HOW DO YOU GET A "NEOPHITE" HITTER TO ABANDON THE FEAR OF NOT HAVING THE FACE SQUARE TO THE PLANE LINE AND MATCHING THE TWO LINES OF FLIGHT?

This thread is pure genius! Superb job on the camera work! This will clear a bunch of fog for many . . . if they are willing to read and understand.

Great job!

Ted, forgive me for being off-topic, but...

Why does your Right Forearm at the Top look in-line with and directly opposed to the motion of the Loading Action of the Secondary Lever Assembly (the Clubshaft), as oppose to the entire Primary Lever Assembly (the Left Arm and Clubshaft)? I thought the latter is more suitable fo the Hitter (per 7-3).

Tong-Tong..I asked him the same question on the phone....perhaps it has more to do with elbow location...pitch versus punch.....remember the elbow location does not make hitting or swinging mutually exclusive...Nicklaus swung with punch...Miller Barber with Push....Is it possible to hit with pitch???

Perhaps a 4 barrel hitter needs to load that way?
Start down is the same as swinging.
Isn't punch or pitch elbow position defined at the release point?

Bagger

It's because he's using the 10-5-E Plane Line which will make the elbow look like it's "pitch."

Ted - would I be correct in assuming that your plane line is right of intended target, and at separation, the clubface is 'closed' to the plane line but 'open (right of)' the intended target line? Would produce a shot that starts left of the plane line, right of the target line and draws toward the target.

Bruce

There are TWO lines . . . the clubface adheres to the true geometric 10-5-A plane, which for hitters purposes is the TARGET LINE. The ball leaves at right angles to leading edge. BUT for the hitter . . . he is using the SURROGATE 10-5-E Plane Line . . . the OUT TO RIGHT FIELD LINE.

So the THRUST OF THE RIGHT FOREARM IS OUT TO RIGHT FIELD, but the leading edge's relationship is to the TARGET LINE not the 10-5-E Plane Line. So take that stumpy nub Right Forearm and PUSH IT OUT PUSH IT OUT WAY OUT! That's your THRUST DIRECTION . . . BUT you want to make absolutely certain that you keep your paddlewheel motion and don't let CF make you into a Horizontal Hinger because that ='s hello left jungle where the elephants go to die . . . DEEEEEP DARK RECESSES OF THE LEFT FORREST.

Ballgame! . . . HOw about that geometric dealie-oo that gives us the relationship of the 10-5-A to the 10-5-E?

Naught Plus Naught Equals Naught Carry the Naught . . . Double-Naught Spy

Nice one Bagger! How come I didn't think of that :rolleyes: . I like that answer. Looking at the "Hitters Row" video of Ted in the Gallery, it looks like his hands are Turned to the Plane at Release Point (suggesting Standard Wrist Action which goes hand in hand with a Pitch Basic Elbow as Annikan said).
I believe you can't get the amount of delayed release in Ted's swing without doing the above. If he was really Drive Loading, it would look more like 10-19-A #1 (note the photo is with Zero Wrist Action, so in reality there would be a little more Wristcock).

Could Ted be a Four Barrel Swinger? :eyes: :naughty: :happy3:

loading, not position
 

7-3, (one of my favorite parts of the whole book)...directly opposed to the motion of On Plane Loading Action of the entire Primary Lever Assembly...

Hitting and Swinging are all about the Loading Action. It's the physics that make them different, not just positions. It's a point that I try to make time after time. I think Annikan and I were on the same page with this, when we met.

I've got my work computer here at the house tonight. Let me see if I can get a pic to show you (if I can get it sent from one computer to the other). It might make more sense.

Give me a minute...

Awwww hell naw!!!! No you didn't.

Teddy Ballgame . . . Please set the record straight . . . You demonstrated to me how the 10-5-E plane line can make you LOOK LIKE you got Pitch in your Punch. But it's still Punch. Perspective . . .

unlike others...
 

There are some on other sites that have made the same statement. Trust that I know yours is in jest, but they think they know what they're spewing is fact. I won't mention names to protect the innocent, but here's the 411 from Mr. Kelly himself.

Homer on 4 barrel swinging:
"there's no point in 4 barrel swinging"
"there's no real advantage"
"if you try to exceed momentum transfer, it will resist"

4 barrel swingers live in the Land of OZ.

Right on Mr. Nuke.

Those that think they are 4 barrel swinging, really don't know hitting.

Hitting is an all out push with the right arm that drives the ball to the earths core. It's a shotputter effort, a one handed pushup, a hard steady press of a shovel into soft earth with just the right arm. The only thing that stops the driving right arm is that you will dislocate the left arm from it's shoulder socket at both arms straight if you don't stop driving. OK I'm being a bit exuberant, but the point is there is a significant effort and centrifigal force just doesn't stand a chance.

Bagger

loading action
 

First, we use the same shoe company. That's where the similarities end. ;) It's Els if you didn't recognize the legs.

Loading and the #3 pressure point:

Hitter has a Fixed Lag Pressure Point (10-11-0-3), and Swingers have a Rotating Lag Pressure Point.

I think you can clearly see in the picture that Els is Loading the top of the shaft, as the entire shaft is laying on the knuckle. And, I'm Loading the back of the shaft, as the shaft and left arm look to be laying in the first joint. He takes a 5 Iron to End, and I'm taking a Driver to Top.

I've drawn the arrow to ask, where would I feel the Load?

Nice artwork Nuke...Loading action.....Resisting versus throwing it on to the pressure point??????..Directly opposed to the on-plane loading action.......NICE!!!! Loading Action...

Just when you thought this thread couldn't get any better . . .

You have just driven home a very very subtle point that is easy for a lot of savy Machinist to miss . . . Great pictures!

If you had the face on view, would the swinger's shaft BOW more assuming there were enough lag pressure to get'r done?

Also . . . Would that be a DOWEL laying at Easy E's feet?



RIP

Great pics Ted - really captures the 'feel' difference of the loading action - side of the shaft (hitter) vs top of shaft (swinger)

Not to take this thread off on a tangent, but these pictures suggest that plane angle may (or may not) be a factor in the rotation of the pressure point.

The flatter the plane angle, the more likely the pressure point would not 'need' to rotate, the steeper the plane angle, the more the pressure point would need to rotate, to stay on plane - everything else being equal that is. Always exceptions (Nicklaus and Hogan for example) - both of whom had to actively 'do' something with their hands (single vs standard wrist action). Perhaps those 'opposite trends' helped them never go left :)

EdZ, I like your post. Could you explain further, the
exception, that Hogan used. Did Hogan use rotating lag
pressure? I have a hard time seeing the rotation in
pictures of his swing. Thanks, Donn.

In photos where he has the 'cup' (double wrist action), you can see it (page 63 5 Lessons, although not a good angle)- pretty much a given if you have a 10-2-A grip and a cup at the top, especially with a startup swivel.

All of those combine to a very open clubface, which let Hogan fire as hard as he wanted through the shot and never fear that he would close the clubface. The same thing with a steeper plane angle would risk a high right side and a pull or pull hook IMO. In a sense, Hogan almost used 'getting stuck' to his advantage (see page 91 and 95) - which the flatter plane angle allowed, but a steeper one (ala Byron or Watson) wouldn't.

never go left...
 

I think that you could throw both of those guys in the "never go left" category.

Hogan hated going left almost as much as he hated putting in the later years.

clubhead/clubface
 

Thanks Bucket,

I'll try to give you my perspective when Hitting. I see both the lines at Address. I imagine a dowel laying in front of the ball as my Ball Line of Flight. And, I imagine a dowel laying in front of the ball as the extension of the 10-5-E Plane Line, out to right field.

I use the first dowel to align my Clubface. Once I'm done with the Clubface alignment, that imaginary dowel evaporates. Then, the only thing is see is the Clubhead covering the Plane Line (the 2nd imaginary dowel) in my waggle above the ball.

As an aside: The same 'matching' of Clubface and Plane Line can be Deadly in a bunker, when using Open-Open.

As we have mentioned Neophite Hitters in this thread and as I consider myself to be one, Ted, could you post a picture with actual dowels on the ground to illustrate what you were talking about in your latest post, i.e. one to represent the Line of flight of the ball and one "as the extension of the 10-5-E Plane Line, out to right field". It would help with the age old question, how far out to right are we talking, atleast for your pattern?

Gea
 

The guy on GEA said I could pull and push at the same time (the only thing that Homer said couldn't happen). He said Swinging and Hitting were the same thing. It was just someone's perspective that made the feelings different. I think he needed to do some more :study: !

Hey Teddy ...why did my right elbow hurt like he77?..Oh yeah let's not do that again.....