TGM Croker Golf Analysis
 

To All,
Since Peter Croker posts on this site, I felt it would be ok to add these comments here. There also is another thread here discussing the TGM definitions by Paul Hart, GSED on Peter's site.



I just finished watching the TGM CGS analysis by Paul Hart, GSED from Australia and Peter Croker. I must say that it is a MUST SEE by all those who have had exposure to CGS, who are on the “Path to Better Golf” using the CGS or just looking for a fresh approach. In my humble opinion, it may be Peter’s best conceptual work to date.

Peter and Paul have done an excellent job explaining the CGS using the TGM 24 components and then some. There is a lot of additional information by Peter to explain what he is thinking and feeling. Insights that are very valuable with details clearly understood.

Paul’s final analysis on CGS stroke pattern will surprise some. The reasons why are insightful. If I say any more, I’ll give away the ending.

Thanks to both Peter and Paul for taking the time to make this analysis possible.

Cheers,

Lee Deitrick

PS: Lynn, thanks for having an open forum where we can post this for those interested in TGM.
The analysis can be found at http://www.crokergolf.com/swing_analysis.htm. It costs $3.00 but worth every penny.

videos
 

I ordered the videos.I can view but cannot hear them.any help

Couldn't agree with you more on the quality and findings of Paul's analysis...and more importantly on Yoda allowing a forum that is open to all that is TGM and those that may have diverse opinions provided that it is presented in a dignified manner.

I am quite sure that Homer would enjoy seeing the directions that TGM has taken and would also be open-minded to at least evaluate and analyze the varying approaches to his teachings that others have undertaken...whether one considers it TGM "pure" or not should not close one's mind to it's merits or possibilities...if only to substantiate one's own belief and understanding. Homer's work was not completed after his first edition...it was an ever evolving learning process.

beetlejuice

You can ask him in that CGS forum.

:)

This is my personal viewpoint. I don’t know what everyone else thinks, but each of us is entitled to our own opinion.

I strongly disagree with your post. Our forum sponsor - Lynn Blake Golf, and we its members, apply the TGM approach under each others scrutiny. Through our willingness to jointly discuss topics, problems and solutions we gain a better understanding of the components and Homer Kelley’s special instructions. I dislike a situation when the response is 'go buy the video if you want more answers'. This is a discussion forum, not a sales forum. If Peter Croker wishes to participate, then do so under the same scrutiny that we all enjoy. Also, if CGS and Paul Harts analysis meet your standards, then lucky you because it falls sadly short of mine. But I'm not going to use this forum to criticize anyone else’s approach to golf or TGM. I'm leaving it at that.

Daryl,

What are your golfing credentials...golf instructor, tour player??? Why does the Paul Hart analysis fall sadly short of your standards?

DG

Time Out
 

Okay...

Time out...

Deep breath...

:)

First of all, Lee Dietrick (ldeit) is one of the best TGM instructors on the planet and a true friend of LBG.

Second, Daryl is one of the most ardent TGM students I have ever been privileged to meet and somebody who, I honest to God believe, that if he heard the woeful news from family -- and if it wasn't raining :) and maybe even if it was -- would climb on an airplane and show up unannounced at my funeral.

And finally, Delaware Golf, who has offered so much to this site with his many contributions including the Tom Tomasello video.

I appreciate so much the concerns of each here -- Lee to spread the word; Daryl to constrain 'freebie' advertising on a site that has taken a great deal of time, effort and money to build; and DG to protect Tommy's Australian video legacy.

Life is short.

Let's all play hard.

But constructively.

Please.

I think the "standard" Daryl is refering to is the standard of sharing information without attaching a marketing agenda to it. If I'm correct, he doesn't need to provide credentials for having that opinion. I share that opinion.
However, there will come a time when LBG will provide content for a fee; Primarly videos in the form of DVD's and even perhaps fee-based downloading of video. However, when the time comes we will resist promoting this on other golf instruction sites unless a partnership arrangement is made in advance.

Thanks,

Bagger

Lynn,


Your comments are well thought out!

"I appreciate so much the concerns of each here -- Lee to spread the word; Daryl to constrain 'freebie' advertising on a site that has taken a great deal of time, effort and money to build; and DG to protect Tommy's Australian video legacy."

I want to spread the word when something clear and informative regarding TGM is available. This helps TGM.

There is a lot of miss information about TGM out there. I can remember hearing that Tom Tomasello’s stroke pattern was a hitter with horizontal hinging of which I am sure DG would disagree.

My intent was to let other TGMer’s know about the analysis. Peter talks of push, push, etc., it is assumed that his stroke pattern is hitting because he uses the word push. It is not and Paul’s final analysis of why, even with the push emphasis, I felt was insightful and informative for those of us who study TGM.

My error was to include the link and mention the cost. For that, Daryl, Bagger, and Lynn I apologize.

Lee Deitrick

DG,

That’s a fair question. What are my credentials?

Golfing ability: Nothing that would impress you nor anyone else.
TGM Knowledge: A little above average.
TGM True Believer: Like the Original.
Years playing Golf: 40

I respect Peter Croker and have told him so and have said as much in this forum. Paul Hart has a G.S.E.D. I don’t have his qualifications.

I have always thought of this site as a “Pure TGM Zone”. I became a little upset at the recommendation and probably said too much. It’s one of my character flaws. I have many.


Please accept my apology.

And: Lynn, I apologize for stepping on toes.

Lee,

I haven't seen the video but I'm assuming the "push" may have something to do with extensor action. I'm not asking you to give away anything that Peter and Co. are charging a few bucks for, but is that the jist of it?

No apologies needed. We will be adding Peter to our Professional Contributors list soon.

Thanks,

Bagger

Daryl,

Fair reply...I haven't seen the Paul Hart analysis, I was just trying to find out what you thought was wrong? However, I think the $3 one pays to view the video...for what I have seen of Paul for free, I would have to assume the video at $3 is totally underpriced. If the cost was $60 or more it might be a different story.

I have yet to see any of the AI's try to take advantage of the forum members (moneywise) on any of the TGM sites.

Cheers to free knowledge and the opportunity to pay for quality education!!!

Play Ball!!!


DG

Bagger,

Here is the info for you as close as I can be to the video script. You were correct!

10-4-0: Stroke Variation
Paul: What Peter is describing here is a classic 2,3,4 stroke variation, a classic swinging action. Peter describes the feeling here as a right arm pushing down action through the ball. I know centrifugal force is overpowering his muscular force, I would call that extensor action. And he has found that very useful to stop any impact fallout or deceleration through impact. So he has inadvertently discovered the “Magic of Extensor Action” in the swing.
Peter: It definitely connects everything up. I feel a good structure through the ball and a connection between the hands and the hips.
Paul: We call that rhythm.

10-11-0 Pressure Points
Paul: Peter is using the classic #2, #3 PP. He keeps talking about this #1 PP here. In my world, its not actually a driving force, its an extensor action force which keeps your swing structure solid. Keep extension there, through follow through point.
Peter: the other thing I feel #1 does for me is it gets the right side continuing on through. It does not hang back which takes pressure off the back.

Closing
Paul: …its not what I thought it was. I had your system as about push here and a push there. But the only pushing I see is all about structure and extensor action. Bracing up the swing through impact. So it’s a …classic swing technique.

Lee

-----------------------------------------------------------

DG,

Yes, I would say it is underpriced.

Lee

Dear Bagger,

Thanks for the notice here and I appreciate being a part of LBG Forum and able to contribute to the understandings of Homer's TGM.
I appreciate Lynn posting the Tom Tomasello videos that I produced in Australia with Tom in 1989. They were very special times for me. Tom was a great human being and super golf instructor.
In respect for Lynn and his connection to both Tom Tomasello and Homer Kelley, I would like to offer free to all LGB Forum members the video download of Paul Hart's assessment of Croker Golf System 24 components.
The link is:
http://www.crokergolfsystem.com/TGMD...G_ANALYSIS.htm
Kindest Regards,
Peter:)
PS: I agree with Lynn in that we are all here to help advance TGM with our best description of TGM and its application to all golfers playing this game for fun and results.
Also I appreciate Lee Deitrick's willingness to share his knowledge with us all. He is a professional's professional when it comes to golf instruction.:)

Wonderful gesture.
 

Thank you Peter :happy3: !

Pulling Together...Not Apart
 

Thanks for this free access, Peter. I'm sure our members will benefit from viewing this four-part video.

I would also like to formally acknowledge your contribution in filming the Tomasello video. At the time we posted the Series, we were unable to determine its specific origin. However, I did my best to credit those involved in my intoduction to the series (in the LBG Classic Movies Forum). Quoting from that post, Tom Tomasello -- the Australia Experience In Nine Chapters:

At the same time, I want to recognize our own Bagger Lance for his extraordinary commitment to this project. It was he who spent countless hours rendering the video into the specific chapters (with their graphics) and format it now enjoys on both our websites.

So, what we get out of the Paul Hart analysis is Tom Tomasello taught a 2,3,4 accumulator swing which substituted “transfer of momentum” at the start of downswing for the use of "The MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM" and extensor action....I believe Tomasello's arguement for this approach would be an issue of generating FULL POWER. See 10-3-K and 10-3-D in the 7th edition...and study chapter 5 (Power) of the Tomasello/Croker Australian video series...

I think we're finally pulling this thing together...:occasion:

DG

Now this is something
 

My congrats to Lynn, Peter, Daryl, Bagger, and DG on the synergy evolving to create something really special here on Yoda'a site! :cheers:

Peter,

Just read the thread additions, very good idea to make the video link available. This will help to advance TGM, LBG, CGS, and lead to a better understanding by all. It's nice we can work together.

Lee

Very Nice
 

Good analysis by Mr. Hart!!! I"ve seen Peter Croker hit balls demonstrating, and have played a few holes with him. His system is prety much based on his technique, and he can definately DO IT WELL HIMSELF.

G'Damnit! Thats another $3 putt I made a couple a days too early.:sad2:

Tomasello and Delaware
 

I believe that Mr. Delaware implies that Tomasello taught a 1,2,3,4 all barrels right arm swing, and I believe ergo that Delaware is actually pulling this Tomasello thing together. I'm not sure if Mr. Hart agreed with Mr. Croker's "feel" of a right arm down and out karate chop, but Tomasello definitely taught me that it wasn't a "feel". He said to go ahead and karate chop the forearm right away without delay before the ball had a chance to move on you. Cock and fire the right arm and let 2,3and 4 fly; if horizontal hinging was the result then hooray and let the ball fly a bit right of target and fall toward the target upon it's descent. If horizontal hinging didn't happen then let it or learn it! No extensor action; the length of the left arm merely prevents the right elbow from totally uncocking until it can, and the pre-stretched tricep muscle fibers don't have to (and definitely should not) contract any faster than they were pre-stretched to instigate the magical right forearm throw. "Hit" the the ball with a right arm "swing". 1,2,3,4 is what Tomasello taught me so go Delaware go! Call it switting if you want to but never let it quit.

Sincerely, Coophitter

Connecting the Right Arm Dots
 

Only those familiar with the evolution of The Golfing Machine know that it was originally presented as...

"...a Right Arm approach to the game."

-- Homer Kelley

Nowhere is this more evident than the instruction (through the fifth edition) for Maximum Trigger Delay of the #3 Accumulator:

"MAXIMUM TRIGGER DELAY is achieved by holding the Right Hand 'palm up' until the last instant and using either a Snap or Flip Release. A left Hand version is an On Plane Flat Wrist 'Karate Chop' at the Aiming Point with the edge of the Left Hand."

Does that mean that #1 Accumulator Muscle Power (versus #4 Accumulator Centrifugal Power) is actively driving the Left Arm and Club through Impact?

No.

Does it mean that the Swinger does not feel an 'active' Right Arm? Both its Extensor Action and the Acceleration Control of the #3 Pressure Point?

No.

I agree with Paul Hart's analysis of the Croker Golf Swing.

I didn’t know that.

I’ve done that once or twice. Nice feeling.

Regardless of your analysis of Paul Harts analysis; :) as a soon to be switter free swinger; is it alright for me to have an active right arm? Maybe that's part of my misunderstanding. My right arm, except for PP#3 has mostly been inert.

Yoda,

It looks like Tommy taught TGM as Homer initially approached the Machine with (a right arm approach)...I wish I could see the first edition...during my three day school with Tommy, the first edition sat on his desk...it would be great to have all of the editions available for study, I know I would be first in line to get a set...there are so many great tidbits of information in the three I have...the 5th, 6th and now the 7th.

DG

Coop,

Thanks for your comments...yes, I agree, it's just not a feel as you say above...for full power, Tommy said to use a definite right forearm karate chop from the top. If you watch Tommy's 1988 video from his Myrtle Beach studio...in one brief moment he talks about uncocking the right arm from the top (just like the Letter series videos from Lee)...this is approximately one year before the trip to Australia...some believe this golf swing was influenced by Peter..after viewing the 1988 video, I don't believe this to be true...Tommy had the swing happening before the trip to Australia.

DG

Professional spirit.
 

Thank you Peter. :thumleft:

A Must Watch Video Series
 

Peter,

Thank you for sharing these videos with our members. You did a great job of describing your swing, and Paul did a superb analysis of translating it into the language of TGM.

You and Paul make a great team and we are honored to have you here.

Hats off to both!

Bagger

Video part 4 from 1:30 to 1:40. Those 10 seconds cleared up a few years of fog. Thanks!