yoda's putting sequence
 

can anyone give a explantation for yoda's set up in his putting stance. I am a teaching professional and I would have a very hard time promoting that set up to a student.

Thanks

guru reply?
 

I'm in between lessons-still waiting on a reply.

I'm no guru but have been trying out this putting pattern since visiting the swamp. Basically, the stance and setup are just like that of a full stroke. Right forarm on plane, extensor action, etc... The main differences from my regular setup are zeroing out accumulator #3 (ie. put the grip under the thumb pad instead of the heel pad), and the ball is more forward than usual for me (just behind lowpoint). It feels amazingly natural, and it works great for me...setup, stroke it, keep those hands movin', listen for the ball hitting the bottom of the cup.

Yoda outlined it in detail here:
http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s....php?t=2590&#2

What do you see that you don't really like nasty?

The "bent-overness"? Ball position?

To mix or not to mix
 

Nasty,

Interesting handle.:)

Basically Yoda is making a putting stroke which complies with his primary swing pattern. In it, he sets up so the ball is struck at, or just prior to the low point of the swing, which is just opposite of his left shoulder. The left shoulder is the top of the swing radius rather than the spine. You will find that in nearly every swing, the left shoulder to clubhead distance defines the full radius at low point.

There are many styles of putting which are geometrically sound, one of the most common is a hands centered, shoulder rock with the arms and hands frozen. This puts the center of rotation around the spine and is also very effective. But why should someone have to change their stroke pattern when they walk up on the putting green? Why not use your primary stroke pattern with the flat stick?

Bagger

Keep in mind that Collards is weilding a 32 inch stick :D . Could have something to do with it.

That round grip is important, too. It's hard to grip the club properly with the typical flat, reminder grip.

ExaRctly.

...

yoda putting
 

Their are numerous problems I have with this putting set up. First, Yoda or a potential student will require back surgery at some point. Secondly, it appears that yoga has loaded up his weight on his left side, which seems like it would be very inconsistent (pressure putts). I'm not intending to write off the style, but a more traditional set up will stand the test of time.

What about Jack's set up? Problems there?

Is there any such thing as a "traditional set up" anymore. Judging by what I see the guys on tour doing these days, it looks like whatever works is the mantra of the day.

E.

jack
 

of course, I have very similar problems with Jack's, but keep in mind that Jack is a needle in the haystack. I never said the style couldn't or wouldn't work. I merely stated that it would be difficult to teach to the masses.

traditional set up
 

I am very fortunate to get to spend a good deal of time with David Toms who he is not to shabby with the flat stick. "weight centered, eyes over the ball and target line, path like a closing door."

Yoda has priority #1 a flat left wrist through impact. Then using one accumulator for the motion.

What does the conventional stance put priority on? Eyes over ball?

When the ball is near the middle of the stance, the left wrist starts bent. Then it must stay the same degree of bent through the stroke.

Yoda's stroke is fine....there's more than one way to do it too you know.

Last night I was listening to a phone conversation between a Youthful Yoda and Homer Kelly. Yoda questioned Homer at length about putting, and Homer insisted that there was no reason to change set up or swing when putting. This follows Bobby Jones and Bobby Locke, who each said the same thing. And who were possibly the two greatest putters who ever lived. Locke set up to putt exactly the same way he set up to hit a full shot, which was with an extremely, yea, a legendary closed stance.

Watch the end of Ben Doyle's Video (now available on DVD!) where he putts with extreme open and closed stances. Yoda knows.

Homer Kelley's Putting Stroke
 

Homer Kelley Putted with an extended Left Arm and a Flat Left Wrist (Impact Fix Address Position). He saw "no reason to return to the Adjusted Address Position" (Bent Left Wrist).

He then located the Ball in his Stance so as to achieve an 'Above Center' Impact and thus a 'true Roll' (Overspin) immediately upon separation. [Note: This is NOT 'hitting up' on the Ball!] That location will be precisely at Low Point with a Reverse Loft Putter and just behind Low Point for a No-Loft or Loft Putter. How much behind Low Point? Far enough back to insure a Negative Loft ('Overspin') Impact -- and therefore not Zero Loft (No Spin or Skid) or Loft (Backspin or Lift) -- but not so far as to cause the Ball to be driven into the ground.

As usual, Homer emphasized that this was his procedure and that you may choose a different one. In which case, no matter how you choose to Impact the Ball -- Roll, Skid or Lift -- the really important thing is to do it the same way every time. Otherwise, your distance control will suffer...

And you along with it!

does the length of the putter matter? i have always choked down too the shaft with mine, being 35"...can i cut it off by a few? does it affect the putter? will it affect my stroke? can one get a putter 'reshafted'? thanks fellas, interesting thread!

Modifications are Fun!
 

PD,

You can shorten your putter easily enough. Depending on how you remove the old grip you might even save it and reuse. Shortening the putter will decrease the swingweight making it feel a little more head light. You can compensate, obviously, by adding weight to the head. This may or may not be practical depending upon the putter you have. You can also backweight the putter to modify the feel and balance (currently popular). All this assumes a little mechanical skill and basic tools. I personally have cut my 2-ball down to 32.5", added ~56 grams to the head, and have it backweighted with a 50 gram weight. Happy Putting! :D

P.S. - Also remember that adding all that weight to adjust the swingweight also changes the total weight of the putter. This will also affect "feel". Experiment a little before making any final modifications.

Steph,

How did you determine the amount of weight to add? Was it just feel and personal preference?

More or Less
 

I have a Certified Balance insert in the butt of the putter. It came with 3 weights (10, 30, and 50 grams I think). This gave me built in adjustability there. As to head weight, I taped quarters to the putter head and practiced at the local golf course. Eventually I got the right weight I wanted, weighed the quarters, and added the weight with lead (Shoe Goo worked great for this). Putting and feel are so personal that experimentation is the only way to go. The overall heavier weight is very nice to smooth out the stroke, BTW.

wow thanks for the info!
i have a 2 ball white hot (the first one out there). does that matter?

where do you guys buy lead tape?

Shouldn't Matter
 

You should be able to do it with any putter. The 2-balls are easier in some respects to add weight to the head because of that nice tunnel through the head. Lots of space to add lead and it remains pretty well hidden.

You can get lead tape at most golf shops or you can order online at places like Golfsmith or Golfworks. However, for the kind of weight we are talking about, your local tackle shop works just fine. Get yourself some lead fishing weights (flat ones work best for obvious reasons). Use Shoe Goo or a Silicone caulk and glue'em in place. It works and costs almost nada; the perfect solution! :D If you want a DIY backweight, I understand that clevis pins purchased at your local hardware store work well. Use the same glueing approach. Have fun and don't hurt yourself! :rolleyes:

Overspin, negative loft and Clubhead travel
 

As you've said, the only way to give the ball overspin is to make sure that Impact Point occurs above the equater of the Ball. And the only way to achieve this is to have negative loft of the Clubface at Impact (regardless of the loft of the actual putter).

However, there are (at least) two ways that the Clubhead can go into Impact with negative loft -- either travelling upwards (after Low Point) or downwards (before Low Point). Which do you think is optimal?

Another useful point to note is that the Clubhead will be travelling outwards before Low Point and inwards after Low Point, even though you can hardly see this given the steep plane used with the putter. Visually and psychologically, this may be a good reason to place the back of the Ball precisely at Low Point.

Any thoughts?

Putt As You Drive...And Vice Versa
 

Percy Boomer, author of On Learning Golf (1946) was arguably the most outstanding teacher of his generation. When asked, "How do you putt?", he replied:

"I putt as I drive."

And so do I.

The only real difference between my Putting and Driving Stroke is the length of the Club and the Location of the Ball.

Weighting the Club -- In the Handle And In the Head
 

As does Steph, I like a heavy putter. This is problematic because I also like a short Putter. Mine is only 32 inches long, and that tends to lighten the overall weight. [For what it's worth, my Arms are long...I wear a 36-inch sleeve.]

To increase the overall weight, I use the heavier 50 gram Certified Balance insert, which I love because it makes the handle very heavy. Unfortunately, this simultaneously lightens the Swingweight. I wasn't smart enough to use Steph's idea of the quarters, so I just kept on adding lead tape to the Clubhead (and the Clubshaft, too!) until it felt relatively heavy and balanced.

For those of you out there whose Stroke tends to be a little shaky at times, I strongly recommend the Certified Balance Weighting.

Putting Stroke Geometry
 

Golf Stroke Geometry does not change with the choice of Club. With the Ball positioned behind Low Point, Impact optimally will be Three-Dimensional, i.e., Down, Out and Forward. Impact occuring after Low Point will result in an Upstroke Motion and Compression Leakage (2-J-2).

For those monitoring the Arc of Approach and its curved Clubhead blur, locating the Ball at Low Point may indeed have visual and psychological implications. For myself, I Trace a Straight Plane Line with my Right Forearm and #3 Pressure Point and am totally oblivious to the actual Arc of the Clubhead through the Ball.

yoda, could you explain where and what that is? how to it etc?
weight in handle??? lots to learn it seems!

before i cut the shaft down, should i just practice with a choked down grip to determine length?

I R a Quantum Mechanic
 

Yoda,

Remember I work in Aerospace; we have to be really clever to come up with those $50,000 hammers and $1,000,000 toilets to sell to the government!!! :D

putting grip
 

Master Yoda..what grip do you use(material) round? reminder? i'm getting closer day by day played 126 holes last week best score 76 worst 83

Call For ThinkingPlus!
 

I'll defer to Stephanie on this one. She has far more expertise in this area than I do.

Already Taken Care Of
 

See post #19 for the gory details...

ok...been practicing for about 2 hours now, i have seemed to cut the shaft down to 33" from 35" and added 5 quarters in the head, doesnt that seem alot? just checking. i tried adding 2-3-4-5-6-7-8 quarters, and play with 31-35" inches for the grip, to me 5 and 33" seems to keep things with more feel and under balance.

It's All About Feel
 

I don't think $1.25 is all that much, but I don't know your financial situation. :D It really comes down to what feels the best and allows you to put the most consistent stroke on the ball. Bottom line, if you make more putts that is what counts.

Putting is about divide and conquer. Build a consistent stroke = half the equation solved. Learn to read greens; now you know where it will go and how it will get there. Put them together and sub-30 putt rounds become the norm. =D>

sounds good to me!!! thanks!

Here's What I Did
 

I yanked the shaft out of my Yes C-Groove Callie (Anser style), glued in a 10gm shaft weight plug into the tip, re-glued and then cut the overall length to 32". Works like a charm.

No Compression Leakage in Putting
 

Thanks for your advice Yoda! Your comments go contrary to what a lot of putting 'gurus' who don't understand the Three Dimensional Impact recommend -- a slightly ascending Clubhead after Impact which necessitates a ball position in front of Low Point. Although the price tag for Compression Leakage in putting isn’t as big as with hitting a driver, there’s still a price to pay!