Anyone Got an Idea on too?
 

Well I will try again...

Statement #1 - "Except during Impact, the Clubshaft can travel on, or to-and from, either Plane because Club Shaft rotation must be around the Sweet Spot -- not vice versa. (2-F) can easily be demonstrated.

Hold a golf club in front of you with the toe up, gripping the tip of the grip in one hand and center of the club head in the other, rotating it will show that the club shaft is moving while both ends remain in place.

Statement #2 - "All the action of the Golf Club takes place on a flat, inflexible, Inclined Plane which extends well beyond the circumference of the stroke -- in every direction. The full length of the Clubshaft remains unwaveringly on the face of the this Inclined Plane -- Waggle to Follow-through.(2-F)".

How do you demonstrate that the shaft remains flat against the Inclined Plane while it is rotating around the Sweet Spot and maintain a straight Plane Line?



D-1 is an attempt to show the Shaft Rotating around the Sweet Spot, note the club shaft travel between Plane Lines causes the shaft to move off the flat surface of the Inclined Plane

D-2 is an attempt to show the club shaft remaining flat to the Inclined Plane, note the Sweet Spot Travel shifts plane lines.

Granted these are flat diagrams, but taking into account the 'in' and 'upward' motion does not change what is shown.

Anyone?????????

A side question... Why does 'Clubshaft' and 'Club Shaft' appear in the text in those variations? I know the the use of capitalization, etc has significance, does combining them have any significance? (note actually 'clubshaft' is not a recognized word in the dictionary)

My Input
 

Martee,

I think the 2-dimensional aspect of the diagram is deceiving. It seems that it you were viewing this from the golfers visual perspective, then the green line would be the base of the plane and the blue line on the "bottom" of each diagram would represent the "top" of the plane (as if it were sliced parallel to the ground). That would make the inclined plane the 3-D area between those 2 lines. The line you show as "clubshaft travel" is more like what the clubshaft itself would look like, the gray bar would be the clubhead and the red dot the sweetspot.

In that case is would seem like the shaft would indeed lie on that inclined plane along with the sweetspot of the clubhead.

Not sure if that makes any sense, and my description wouldn't be exactly to scale, but that is how I interpret it.

Comet

Hatchet Wobble
 

This is exactly right, Bob. And the phenomenon produces a very interesting visual effect.

The thrown hatchet's center of mass (or its proxy, the center of gravity) is moving a smooth arc on its way to the ground. In fact, it is attempting to move in a straight line, but gravity is pulling it toward the ground. Despite the unwavering parabolic arc of the center of mass, the rotation of the handle around that center of mass produces a visual 'tumbling' or 'wobbling' effect. That appearance of 'wobble' is caused by the hatchet's non-uniform distribution of mass, i.e., more mass is located in the head than in the handle. A thrown baseball or Chinese throwing star http://throwing-star.gungfu.com/ does not appear to wobble because, unlike the hatchet, its center of mass is directly in the middle. The point is that an object always rotates about its center of mass, despite any appearance to the contrary.

Similarly, during the Golf Stroke, the Clubshaft rotates about the Center of Mass (the Sweet Spot) of the entire Golf Club. As it does so, it moves from its own Plane -- the Clubshaft Plane at Impact Fix and Address -- to and from the Plane of the Sweet Spot.

Non-Uniform Terminology
 

The non-uniform terms Club Shaft and Clubshaft have identical meanings. Hence, give no special significance to the use of one versus the other. Similarly, consider interchangeable the terms Sweet Spot and Sweetspot.

Personally, I prefer the term Clubshaft because of its consistency with the terms Clubhead and Clubface.

And that 'point' is the tip of the triangle, PP#1.

I would submit that the Hatchet analogy is not valid. It does demostrate an off center weight and motion. But with the golf club we don't have it disconnect or free flying. So what we experience is a pulling effect against the against golf club, primary assembly, etc. This is a feel that we can either resist or follow.

In D-2 the club shaft is not moving closer to the sweet spot plane line, even with an back, up and in motion. The use of a Vertical Plane shouldn't change the characteristics. The demo example I gave earlier to show club shaft rotation should make it obvious that the shaft has to change.

How a Plane Board (Mr Kelley used this extensively in the book) can function and still have the club shaft flat against the Inclined Plane and rotate to the sweet spot line defies logic. Even in 2-F it is stated that these are two separate planes, when he suggests that you align / turn the clubface so both the Club Shaft and Sweet Spot well be on the same Plane the Start Down. Both Planes always pass through the Lag Pressure Point. I keep coming back to the fact that the Inclined Plane and Sweet Spot Plane are two separate planes, having two separte plane lines and two separate plane angles, which the Sweet Spot Plane Angle by this definition is flatter than the Inclined Plane Angle. Look at 2-C-1#1.

I realize most probably think I am being difficult or hard headed, but when someone says the Inclined Plane Line is the Target Line, etc. They are just wrong, using Mr. Kelley words. Drawing lines on the photos and labeling them and then making conclusions that the golfer is high/low etc. is IMO leading to incorrect conclusions. Understanding the Geometry, the terms and the proper application of terms to the golf stroke is all I am trying to do. Evidently with some of the response I have read it is clear that I am not doing a very good job in communicating.

I will repeat what I have stated earlier in other threads. The Sweet Spot Plane IMO is key, is fundamental to be able to delivery a solid golf stroke using Feel.

sweetspot plane
 

Martee,
I have to say that your drawings both have some truths. As Yoda pointed out, there are some visuals that you must see. You need to take your first statement and cherish it. And, you need to take your second statement and wipe it from your mind. You cannot reconcile the statements. To answer the question that follows statement #2, you can’t. There will be some clarification in the 7th edition in 2-F. You need to assume that the sweetspot plane is always the plane, and, as you said, is “the key”.

Let's begin with the first drawing:
If you were to remove the blue line, and another big “if” you were to have eyes in your #3 pressure point, the drawing perfectly illustrates the rotation of the hosel around the sweetspot. The only way that this diagram will work is to have your eyes on the sweetspot plane. This is not typically our visual perspective, as our eyes are above plane, giving us “visual equivalents” (2-J-3).

The second drawing:
This perspective is more the visual perspective that we see being apparently inscribed on a horizontal plane, or the visual equivalent of the sketch 1-L (like a plane board). I would make the “sweetspot travel” the arc of approach, going from impact to low point, then back up and in. Also, I would not demonstrate the sweetspot rotating around the hosel. But in this sketch the sweetspot should not switch planes. The sweetspot is always on it’s plane, but does travel in a visual arc. Again, take the fixation with the shaft and throw it away and use the sweetspot. It just so happens that the hosel and sweetspot are often on plane together (“except during Impact”).

It's a good thing this is in the lab.

Air Born
 

Looks like to me the sweet spot is air born and only touches the point that defines its Plane Line once i.e. Low Point Plane Line. So since it's air born then there should be a line that extends from the sweet spot to the plane that it is adhering to?

If we are to accept 2-N-0 where the Sweet Spot Plane Line has been redefine (herein) to the Impact Plane Line which lies on the Sweet Spot Plane along with Low Point Plane Line, we discover that the Sweet Spot will pass through the Impact Plane Line (Plane Line) once on the down stroke and once on the up stroke, whereas it only passes through the Low Point Plane Line once.



In the event I misunderstood your post and it was to say I should extend a line downward...

I did just that when attempting to model it in real life.

What I discovered was that the 'roll' that the swinger employs during start up and initially in the backstroke does indeed pull the extended line (sweet spot plane) to the inside for Diagram 2. As for a hitter who doesn't employ an intentional roll, it stayed on line, Ah-Ha, oops in the initial modeling I used a fix point at the top of the club shaft(grip). When the fix point moved, then so did the line for diagram 2 again.

One simple way to prove or disprove the the diagrams, etc. is to use either a vertical or horizontal plane instead of an Inclined plane. By doing that it removes one component of the motion, either In (Vertical Plane) or the Up (Horizontal Plane). Basically making this a 2 dimensional model initially, removes complexit. Then add back in the 3rd dimension by using an Inclined Plane.

Thought I would add my response to a similar thread on Brian's site re: sweetspot and hosel rotation

Take a club and hold it in your thumb and forefinger at the very end of the grip.

Spin it around (or better, imagine you could spin it fast)

(as noted by shootin4par on Brian's site, you can hold it between your palms to do this)

Notice that because of the design of the club, the clubhead spinning in this way travels in a 'circle' - from the tip of the grip end where you are holding it - to the 'center' of the circle create when you spin the club in this way.

The 'center' of that circle is, in effect, the sweetspot

Now - imagine this same picture - but in a horizontal plane....

then in a golf motion....

The hosel (or if it helps to picture it, the shaft) rotates around that 'circle'

For all the responses and I understand what has been said, BUT it is clear I am either missing a major factor here or ....

If the Clubshaft is to remain FLAT against the Inclined Plane having a Straight Plane Line and the Sweet Spot Plane Line is also straight you can if you rotate at the correct rate, one and only rate to maintain those relationships.

Since Hitters and Swingers 'Swivel' in the Back Stroke at different rates makes this impossible to maintain the above relationships UNLESS the back stroke speed of a hitter and swinger must be different, the hitter having the slower back stroke.

Also if we could easily quanitify this rotation rate per back stroke speed, we could provide a key for a golfer to remain On Plane,.

As for the Down Stroke, same problem exists.

And none of this accounts for LAG or Droop which will again affect the outcome.

One thing we all should be able to walk away from this discussion is that you DON'T want to monitor the Club Head, you DON'T want too focus on the Club Head. It has to be the HANDS else the uniqueness of the stroke will be very open to inconsistencies and create a number of TGM 'X' Components.

Good Study!
 

It would be an interesting study to see how different the time it takes to make a SWING vs. Hit is, and if there is a correlation. The Tour Tempo method for this might be good.

Martee may be on to something!

So when the hands are turned or rolled onto the plane the shaft should point at the ball, and when they aren't the shaft should point just inside the ball. Yes? No?