#3 Location in Relation to Plane Line
 

I would like to hear some discussion of where the #3 Pressure Point is located in relation to the Plane Line during the 10-20-E "Palm up to the Plane" position, as compared to where it would, or should be for(usually) a Hitter, who is probably using Single Wrist Action and Right Arm Throw.

The #3 Pressure Point -- Swinger Vs. Hitter
 

At the Swinger's End Backstroke, the #3 pressure Point has rotated to the top of the Shaft and against the first knuckle -- the equivalent of a Weak Single Action Grip (10-2-A). It remains there at least until Release and possibly through Impact (not mechanically the ideal, but not disastrous either since Centrifugal Force, not Muscular Effort, is driving the Club).

The Hitter should stop at the Top of the Line Delivery Path. In so doing, his #3 Pressure Point never varies: It remains against the back of the Shaft and in the meaty part of the Right Forefinger.

The Plane Line itself has no effect on the #3 Pressure Point Location of either Swinger or Hitter. Except, of course, that the #3 Pressure Point -- or any alternative Pressure Point assigned the Clubhead Lag -- must always be driven unfailingly toward the Line (1-L #10).

Doc,

Is the #3 pressure point also rotated for a swinger who ends at TOP?

Muchas!

B

Doin' What Comes Natur'ly
 

No, Colonel.

Ideally, the Swinger begins his Stroke with the #3 Pressure Point in the meaty part of the Right Forefinger and directly behind the Shaft. He does not actively change that Loading to against the first knuckle (and the top of the Shaft). Instead, as the Backstroke progresses from Top (of the Line Delivery Path -- Right Shoulder high and On Plane) to End (anywhere, even a fraction, beyond Top) that function is performed by the motion of the Club itself.

As the Club approaches the horizontal, its momentum pulls the Club more and more toward the Ground. This Action gradually loads the Sweetspot Plane of Rotation Pressure away from the back of the Shaft and toward its top. Meanwhile, the Right Forearm (and Elbow) that initially supported the back of the Shaft now supports its top.

That Loading Action does not exist for the Swinger who restricts his Backstroke to Top.

Pop the Top
 

To me TOP is where it's at. Swinging or Hitting.

Thanks!

B

The Eye Of The Beholder
 

My post above cries out for video. A question answered with a precision unknown to the world of conventional golf instruction and supported with video.

Will you guys support a premium site? If so, what is reasonable? No kidding. This site needs you. For the best golf instruction pieces in the world...what is reasonable?

Support a premium site?? Sure, sign me up!!
How much to charge?? Hmmmmmmmmmmm-I know another TGM site charges about $40/yr.---and I signed up for that, if that gives you a clue. Not sure what the "break point" is for the average person who views this site on a regular basis. Perhaps you could develop your ideas for the premium site, post those, and then take a poll as to what people would be willing to pay. Yearly access fee vs 6 mo access vs 3 month access, prices for each, etc. Random thoughts after being up for 18 1/2 hrs.

Bottom line---if you build it, they will come. Dr Dave

Makin' It Work For All
 

Thanks, Dave.

That's a start, folks. We sincerely need your constructive advice. Let us hear from you.

worth?
 

Almost any price is reasonable when you consider what We have gotten so far for free. The Hogan home movie, the Tom Tomsello series, Snead and Toski, Ben Doyle and all the Blake/Fort clips from workshops. An impressive library of information.

But I have reservations about a premium service like Chuck’s because it creates a two-tier level of membership. You can feel like an outsider if you do not join.

Maybe the Brian Manzella a la carte pricing is the way to go. PayPal to unlock the codes and keep the video. On Chuck’s site, the video clips (unless changed) cannot be downloaded – only viewed while a member online. I never liked. I would pay an extra cost to be able to “keep’ the download.

I do not know the (devil in the ) details of either method- Manzella's or Evan's.

A buck a week? The price of a box of ProVs? The cost of a round of golf at your favorite course? 20 bucks a year? What is it worth? How much ‘product,' how often?

I would make sure that enough video material is in the ‘can’ before launching the service to prevent any lull in service.

food for thought

6b

Thanks, Mike.

12 Piece...

When you say top, do you mean top per 8-6 or top arc per 10-23-C and 10-23-D. I was at first confused with Lynn's answer...and want to make sure I understand your reference.

Thanks!

The Top location for a Swinger is The End.
All players reach the Top, which can either be the Top (for Hitter) or the End (Swinger).

Now I have a similar question:

For a Swinger performing Basic or Acquired motion (chip or pitch), should they feel the quater point turn even though the hands are no where near the End?

Now, the reason Yoda gives for the feel of quater point turn is because of the effect of gravity and momentum of the club as it approaches horizontal. If this is the only reason, then the swinger should not feel this quater point rotation to the top of the shaft when doing chips or pitches.

However, could the mere act of longitundinally accelerating the club (i.e. Drag Loading) also rotate this pressure point from the aft to the top of the shaft?

Premium Site
 

If you can put together a premium site for $40, sign me up. I think this is the best golf site on the Internet already, but the more videos you can add, the better.

Pay Site
 

I am signed up at the $40.00/yr site and also go to Manzella's site often and do have all of his stuff (bought and paid for).

To tell you the truth, I really like the idea of being able to download the movies too and would be willing to pay as I go.

For example, the last series you posted (Colin), I would have paid for easily since it gave insight into what you (Yoda) focus on with a student. Fair price? Well, Manzella would have charged around $7.00 per 30 minutes so add up the time to see where you would stand.

I subscribed to Chuck's site after I did a trial and found the video seqments useful in clearing the fog. I'm not sure I would have subscribed except you can't see all of the responses in the forum UNLESS you subscribe so I caved.

Now the big question, will I subscribe again? Not sure I will, but will give Chuck this year to see where he goes with his site.

What I would really LOVE TO SEE is a video explaining TGM from front to back, Chapter by Chapter. I would pay for a series that does that because there is a niche for it out here in golfland. I think the book (once read two or three times) plus the websites can help but more detailed explainations would be welcome on video. I know this would not replace working with an AI, but since I am working full time, and travelling too, it would be a great alternative.

Long winded, sorry. My suggestion, work up some premium site materials and offer a short 30 day temp subscription to judge the response. I think $40.00 per year is a good indicator of what you can get but you should really offer the material as a download at that price. If the response is low (or no interest) then try the Manzella approach and put up materials for a price (Paypal works great) on select topics and see where that takes you.

Good luck.

Different view
 

Selling videos, either by subscription or pay-per-vid will not generate any significant amount revenue. This site should act as a front-end that sucks people into The Biggies such as seminars, schools and live lessons. Attempting to find a pricing scheme that profit maximises is not the right idea here. We should try to get as many people interested as possible, get them shouting, "please give me more!". If all the good stuff (e.g. Lynn's teaching vid) has to be paid for, then it's hard to create this level of interest, especially for newbies (remember they make up the bulk of the market) since people are unlikely to pay for things they don't know much about. So by making content too exclusive, you are making this front-end entrance smaller, the funnel that ultimately leads people to experience the biggies.

Total agreement Tong. The harsh reality is that there is not enough G.O.L.F.ers out there to generate any significant amount revenue with a pay site if money is the only reason to set one up.
But I do think that a pay as you learn will help set off some cost and time to sysops and instructors for going the extra mile.

I know that the set up on CE’s forum is elaborate and takes time to set up and maintain. That is a lot of work which justifies any effort on his part to generate profit.

I do agree with selling sizzle to buy the steak. What is the steak?

Loading The Swinger's Lag Pressure Point
 

The Swinger typically uses Standard Wrist Action to Turn and Cock the Left Wrist on the Backstroke and Uncock and Roll it during Release. Also, in full Strokes, he tends toward a longer Backstroke (End) wherein the Club travels past the Top (of the Line Delivery Path). As he approaches the Top (of the End Backstroke), he will sense the Clubhead Lag Pressure begin to Load against the first knuckle of the Right Hand (and the Top of the Shaft). This Loading is completed by Drag Loading during the Start Down.

Where the Top of the Stroke is not the End, i.e., it is either at the Top of the Line Delivery Path or at the Side (any point along the Path to the Top), he will feel the Lag Pressure Load against the first knuckle during the Start Down.

In both cases, this top-of-the-Shaft Pressure Point Loading ideally is replaced by a back-of-the-Shaft Loading as the Release Swivel begins the Rotation of the Hands into Impact.

The Swinger (who employs Centrifugal Throw-Out Action to drive the Club) may choose to use Single Wrist Action instead of Standard. However, unless using a true Single Action (10-18-C-3) wherein the Left Wrist remains vertical to the ground at all times (as in the Turning Shoulder Plane of 10-6-D), the Pressure Point Pressure must not be allowed to Rotate to the Top of the Shaft. Hence, he should be aware of the relative incompatibility of the End Backstroke and Drag Loading (as opposed to Drive Loading) when using this procedure.

Alternatively, the Swinger may use Special Wrist Action (10-18-F) wherein a Single Wrist Backstroke is followed by a Standard Wrist Action Downstroke (with its Top-of-the-Shaft Loading as discussed).

lunch
 

This thread is beginning to sound like lunch at one of the workshops with several topics being discussed. LOL:p

Mea Culpa
 

My fault, Mike. I thread-jacked when I asked about premium content. As you were, gentlemen!

I was talking about top of the straight delivery path TOP with the hands basically at shoulder height.

For me going to END monkeys everything up.

Thanks!

B

I have a question.

I am as big a TGM fan as anyone. I remember 4 years ago when it was just me, Todd, Randy, PB (whom btw knows the book as well as anyone this side of Yoda), Chuck and a select few others. So...trust me, this question is not meant to be negative.

But seriously.

How many on here can actually Feel a rotating lag pressure point? Please - everyone respond.


Thanks.

Well it doesn't rotate its position on the shaft- the contact remains the same (is that a zeppelin tune?). Its relative position to the swing plane changes with either single or standard wrist action.

And a quarter turn isn’t a slight move- it is all the wrist can move – 90 * – so it goes from parallel to perpendicular.

Is this right?

I can, certainly on full shots when swinging. The startup swivel and 'end' are the two key areas IMO.

I am a moderator for a sports site and it seems the going rate for "premium" content is about $10 a month. That includes daily articles, video and access to message board. You will be amazed at how much money you can generate at $10 a head per month.

After what has been discussed, I think the keys to this 'top of the shaft loading feel' is:

• Drag Loading
• Standard Wrist Action on Downstroke

The reason I didn't include Startup Swivel (or Standard Wrist Action on Backstroke) and End Assembly Point is because they are not mandatory for this quater turn feel in loading pressure, even though they are very compatible.

I know that everything is rotating...but I personally don't really feel it (or sense it consciously) in PP3....I would think that I sense the rotation more in my left arm, left hand, and left wrist (left wrist = clubface). I use PP3 mostly to trace the plane line (if I'm using RFT) and I guess more subconsciously to sustain lag.

BTW, I thought left hand was clubFACE, right hand (which includes PP3) was clubHEAD?

Ramming Speed
 

You are making remarkable progress, Leo. Three thumbs up!

Left Hand CF Alignment -- Right Hand CH Lag -- Left Wrist CH Rotation
 

The Left Hand and its Hinge Action is Clubface Alignment/Ball Control (Component #10). It is in operation from Impact to the end of the Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight position). The Flat Left Wrist is held Vertical to one of the three Associated Planes (Horizontal, Angled or Vertical). This is an Arm Motion and not a true Rotation of the Hand.

The Right Hand and its #3 Pressure Point (Forefinger or First Knuckle or, if Rotating, both) is Clubhead Lag/Thrust Control (Component #11). It is in operation from the Start Down Loading to the Finish. The Lag Pressure is totally inert and never 'Released'.

The Left Wrist and its Turn and Roll is Clubhead Rotational/On Plane Control (Component #18 ). This Wrist Action is in operation prior-to-Impact. In the Swinger's Standard Wrist Action -- a Swivel Action -- it is a true rotation of the Hand independent of Arm Motion.

I think I'm only beginning to really understand hinge action (I've been swivelling through impact). A couple of questions:

(1) If hinge action is an arm motion, does that mean that the hands (during the impact interval to follow through) come through flatter with horizontal hinging, more upright with vertical hinging and somewhere in between with angled hinging? In an ideal horizontal hinge would your hands trace a path basically parallel to the horizontal plane (for all intents and purposes the ground) through this interval? Is that a closing only action hinge?

(2) Should the swinger feel a definite end to the swivel into impact alignments? Is there a stopping of the swivelling roll feel?

Thanks,
Chris

(By the way, it was only after seeing Collin's video that hinging (as opposed to swivelling) really started making sense to me - fantastic)

1) Certainly the 'feel' of a proper horizontal hinge action is IMO a very 'horizontal' feeling - that of a closing door - a 'level frisbee toss' - this should not disrupt the fact that impact is DOWNward.

2) The 'roll' is imparted by the PIVOT. Uncock (on plane) then Roll (via the pivot throw out action). The uncock is a 'downward on plane' motion, the plane of the left wristcock, the left wedge. If CF is being used properly, the 'true swinger' will find that nothing must be done with the HANDS to produce 'roll' - simply uncocking and pivoting properly.

This is what I feel with the Tomasello motion shown recently - a strong uncocking downplane with the feel like the club is going into the ball way open. But then the pivot kicks in and you get a nice little drawing action. Sometimes I fail to trust however, and bend the plane line - I mean the club looks really open!

With the pivot supplying the roll, would you say the pivot centre (or verticle axis) is serving as a hinge pin on the horizontal plane?

Chris

Hurricane
 

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Lagster has been out for a few days due to the recent hurricane.

Mr. Yoda... would you say the rotation of the #3 Pressure Point from the Top of the shaft (for the Swinger),back(returning) to the Back of the shaft(ideally) during RELEASE... is the result of CENTRIFUGAL FORCE, or is a manipulated action?

Also, it might be good to mention how disruptions will/could occur if a HITTER rotates his #3 Pressure Point at the Top.

As far as the Premium site... I kind of agree with Tongzilla that the new people will probably not want to pay a fee.
A SPECIAL premium video section, while keeping some video available on the regular site, might work. The VIDEOS are excellent, by the way!!!

I asked this:

And got this:

Why startup swivel??? I can understand end.


I assume by 'top of shaft loading feel' you mean rotating lag pressure point. Agree with drag. Why only list standard???

Why startup swivel???? What does that have to do with RLPP (rotating...lag..)???


First, I agree. I dont feel it either. But then again, I have way way too many moving parts!!!!!!!

Secondly, you are correct - lefthand=clubface, right hand=clubhead as Lynn puts it together below..


Ahhh....My Yoda. A thumbs up for Tong.....

Same questions!

Why only list standard???

Why startup swivel???? What does that have to do with RLPP (rotating...lag..)???

Thank you everyone!

.................................................. ..............

With Standard Wrist Action the Left Wrist Turns and the Right Forearm FANS. The #3 Pressure Point will go along with this movement. I think the #3 Pressure Point Rotation Mr. Kelley talks about(10-11-O-3) is at the End(Swinging).

The question I had is if the #3 moves to the Top of the shaft...what CAUSES the pressure point to get back to behind the shaft(on plane), manipulation or centrifugal force? I realize that SOME Swingers keep it in the Weak (on top) position after it rotates at the END, but I think it is better if it goes back to the ON PLANE position at some point before IMPACT.

Like I said in my previous posts, the feel of Pressure Point #3 rotating is not really to do with Standard Wrist Action on Backstroke, or the End location of Assembly Point.

Pressure Point #3 doesn't actually physically move to the top of the shaft -- it's a feeling.

PP #3 moves back to its aft position because of the Release Swivel. There should be a Strong Single Action grip throughout the stroke.

Philly,

Start up Swivel changes the shaft to sweetspot rotation which may or may not have a direct relationship to the 1/4 Turn loading direction rather than an actual turn at the Top/End...

I could be wrong? I would welcome correction if needed!!!

To me Swivel is more of a shaft/sweetspot thing than exclusively a clubface thing...

The clubface thing is subject to the "Hinge Action." Executing Impact as a swivel leads to erratic clubface alignments/motions

Yoda....Am I on to it or NOT????

Annikan

Pressure Point #3
 

Pressure Point #3 moves(on it's own) to the top of the shaft when the club goes to the END, with Swinging. You don't have to manually rotate it. Some keep it there, in the weak position, and some have it return to the aft(ON PLANE) position on the downswing before IMPACT.

IF... a Hitter rotates to the WEAK position... he will ususlly have problems. He needs to keep that #3 AFT, where it can be in a PUSHING position.

CF can help loading on the backswing too ;)

When using a startup swivel, CF on the backswing can load lag pressure along the joint/pad next to PP#3. Not a 'real' pressure point, but one that can be felt when using startup swivel. This can be a little 'extra' help for maintaining extensor action - using CF - rather than using only right arm.

The feeling of the 'wheels rim'

Lagster...

Only with 10-18-A???


Hang on my friend!

Doesnt um....different wrist actions wind up with the same top position???

How?

So....

Freddy with his 10-2-D doesnt have a rotating lag pressure point????


HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#3
 

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Good questions by phillygolf!!!

Since LAG is the secret, it would be good to understand exactly what the PRESSURE POINT that senses and monitors that Lag Pressure is doing, and where it is!

If you take a little flashlight or laser and shine it out of your #3... you will see that the right forearm motion back, up, and in, if done properly, will shine the light on the plane line. This can be done with Standard, or Single Wrist Action.

Now... when the #3 is ROTATED to the (top of the shaft) at the END with Swinging, and HOW it returns to the AFT side of the shaft on the downswing, is another thing. This question, I think, really has not been answered yet. I would say that this happens by either Centrifugal Force, or by a learned hand manipulation. Some, of course, leave the #3 in the weak position after it moves there at the END.

A description is given in 10-11-O-3, but HOW the return to the AFT side is done is not really given... it just says it "may" happen when the "wrists SWIVEL back to their Vertical Position.

Now... with a Swinger using Single Wrist Action?