Tom Tomasello, GSED -- The Downstroke Motion
 

Courtesy of our Professional Contributor, California teaching professional Lee Dietrick, GSEM, http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/v....php?page=pros
we are pleased to present another LBG Classic Video featuring Tom Tomasello, GSED. Tommy taped this one at his home in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, in May 1992 at the age of 72. Lee had left him a voice mail asking a few questions. Rather than write back, Tommy sat down at the camera and videotaped his response for Lee...and for posterity.

No doubt there will be some interesting discussion of the motion he describes. Some have called it Right Arm Swinging. Others have called it Hitting with Horizontal Hinging. Tommy himself labeled it on the tape as the Magic of the Right Forearm, Homer Kelley's overarching term describing the normal participation of the Right Forearm in either the Punch or Pitch Major Basic Stroke (7-3).

I'll take Tommy at his word: I personally believe he is focusing on the Right Forearm's participation in the Left Arm Swing (12-2-0) Further, his description of the Pivot's response to the Right Forearm is simply his interpretation of the Hand-Controlled Pivot (Chapter 5). In any event, the video stands on its own and is here now for us all to see. We invite you to share your own conclusions. For ease of downloading, we have arbitrarily divided the video into two chapters of about fifteen minutes each.

Enjoy!

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/v...se_images&g=19

quoting Homer's notes
 

Thanks for sharing a great video, Lynn. Personally, I really like the feeling of control that comes with a "heavy hand" driving the club through the ball. But I must admit that I've improved my so-so strokes by relying more on pure swings this season.:)

Anyway, in my own game, although I somtimes do clean hits and clean swings, I have problems drawing the line between hitting and swinging. Thus, a part of Homer's notes was kind of reassuring. I also think these notes may clarify what Tomasello is advocating: In Homer's words an "out and out swing with right arm thrust".

From Homer's notes:

"Left Arm or Right Arm - If the Right Arm Drive propels the Left Arm
Lever Assemblies, it is still a Left Arm Stroke because the center of
the Clubhead Arc is the Left Shoulder. It is merely Right Arm Powered. But - if the center of the Clubhead Arc is at the Right Elbow, then it is a true Right Arm Stroke, the Bat. Right Arm thrust can add considerable yardage for an out and out Swinger, provided its tendency toward Angled Hinging is recognized. Pivot Thrust can add about half as much increase in yardage for an out and out Hitter provided its tendency toward Horizontal Hinging is recognized. "

On a side note, I do believe there is a need to balance the hipturn against the right arm drive. If the right arm drive overtakes the hip turn too early, the clubface will either close prematurely or remain open through impact - depending on grip and rhythm. It's either that or me having a stroke issue:oops:

This is a really great video - thanks to ldeit for this. It will be in my collection forever :)

Thanks Again :)

Thanks Lee for sending me a copy of this video a while back...as of June, I'm using the motion in the video for my primary full swing....it works....both distance and accuracy (won the last golf tournament I entered earlier this month....the swing holds up under tournament pressure).

Thanks Yoda for putting this video on your website...I believe a number of golfers will benefit from seeing it.

Bagger/Trig...great editing job as usual.


DG

Lynn, DG, and all,

I am glad to offer this video for all to see. Tommy sent this to me a few years ago and I watch it often. As I told Lynn last evening, I do not remember what I asked Tommy but was very happy to receive his comments.

I didn't know what I had until I became more knowledgeable and involved with TGM.

As a note, there is a lot of similiarity between his downswing motion and that of Peter Croker whose work is also based in TGM.

Hope all enjoy the video.

Lee Deitrick (ldeit)

How is this not throwaway? can someone explain what the difference from this and casting is please?

To me the clubshaft down-and-out "throw" is a different but effective way to communicate the uncocking motion while disallowing throwaway.

Now; Is it a:

Hitting motion or 4-barrel
Where the throw-out provides power...

or

a Swinging motion
where the zero-power throw-out is there to make sure the clubhead lag pressure point is established?



I do not know and he does not go into that, but either way I learned from the video. It gave me a new great visual for what throwaway is and is not.

Thanks Lee. Lots of food for thought.

Not to mention that it was great to see a follow-up to the earlier Tomasello videos. He seems to be substantially older. Initially it seems he will not raise from the chair, but as he does it is easy to see that he'd still be able to play decent golf and the age of 72. Nice!

uncocking the right wrist?
 

Great video
TT is talking about uncocking the right wrist down plane, is that what he is feeling. According to TGM the right wrist should never cock, only bend??

I thought he was talking about uncocking the right forearm, but I need to look at it again. If he actually said so I am sure his mind was somewhere else. Maybe in his hands... :)

wanole,

Throwaway is a horizontal wrist motion, bending the left wrist or flattening the right wrist.

Casting is a vertical wrist motion, uncocking the left wrist while the right arm does not bend or lower.

ldeit

Oh my!
 

He starts out OK with zeroing out wristcock and #3 accum while HITTING some punch shots. It's all downhill from there. It's one thing to give the bad advice of throwing the club down from the top with the arms(#4 throwaway), but to do it along with wristcock throwaway makes it even worse.

Anyone who takes this advice will have to overaccelerate the left wrist to keep the left wrist flat and avoid flipping. Without a hip slide preceding the arm movement, the player will constantly be on the edge of hitting fat.

It sounds as if he had been listening to Jimmy "No Angles" Ballard when he makes his "anti-drag" comments and says it leads to hitting the ball to the right. And also it sounds as if he had been listening to Croker.

I watched it again, he is talking about uncocking the right wrist (app. 14 min. into the video), and about uncocking both wrists, but it might be explaining what golfers do wrong. It's a little unclear. I might have mixed it with the motion he is doing all the time, where it looks like he is throwing the right hand out and at the same time uncocking the right wrist.

Anyway it makes a lot of sence this swing, and I'm definitely going to experiment with it. I'm a converted hitter ( hitting all shots from putter to driver these days) but some days it seems like I mix old swinging habits into it, messing it up bad. Right hand swinging might be the answer especially with the longer clubs.

Joe,

The full swings that Tomasello takes at the ball after the short shots are downhill....hmmmm. I think I would watch the video again...

I truly believe the golf swings that Tomasello takes in the Australia video are the same motion in this latest video from his studio in 1992. Why...it's the finish...the throw from the top at the beginning of the downswing produces a very controlled finish...I'm producing the same finish now, that was the big revelation once I started to use this exact motion....checkout Tomasello's Australia video then checkout out Jodie Mudd's swing...both have identical finishes...

I don't remember Peter Croker ever mentioning using the MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM in his book or the video I have (The HIT basics)...

DG

The Director of golf at the Bethpage course once said that Ballard ruined more golf swings in the 80's when he was popular........FWIW.............

Meadowbrook CC in Broken Arrow, OK
 

He was also doing that in OK in the mid-80s and I've got my lesson tape to prove it!

Thom,

On cassette tape from my 3 day school with Tomasello...I have Tommy saying the right wrist remains level throughout the swing...however, it's interesting...in section 2-P last paragraph Homer says....Centrifugal Force alone Uncocks the Swinger's Wrists...I believe I have Tomasello on tape saying centrifugal force is responsible for uncocking the left wrist in the downswing eventhough he is using the right forearm to uncock the right elbow.

DG

What many of you are missing is that Tommy is trying to show what REALLY happens and what the "FEEL" may be from HIS VIEW.

Watch the video again and he says it should "feel" "this way" but on "video it will be this way."

He's teaching TGM at its finest!

He's showing you the mechanics, then he's trying to show you the feel, then he demonstrates it.

Sometimes things aren't always spelled out for you, you have to read between the lines a little ;)

Encore!
 

Thanks, Guys. Keep 'cussing and discussin'!

Obviously, there is a great deal of interest in what Tommy, one of the early influential figures in The Golfing Machine®, had to say about the Golf Stroke. And there is no doubt that he influenced at least two very large figures in golf -- Jodie Mudd, the Player and Davis Love, Jr., the Teacher. To that end, we have for you an encore presentation...

Bagger?

OK, I didn't get this part. What does he mean by "swing the clubhead in front of the left side?":confused:

Hmmmmm.....another Tomasello video in the vault!!!

DG

OK, so when does he tell us what to REALLY DO in order to produce what REALLY happens?:confused:

Now that's funny...

So what he stated and demonstrated, certainly appears to be a Swinging Motion. For some reason with all the discussion I expected to see this hitting motion, but it is not.

Thanks for the tape. It was interesting.

He says that, but that's not what he's doing - he's moving the entire club past the left hip, not just the clubhead. But the problem is that he's doing it by moving his entire left arm away from his body with arm effort.

Keeping it Simple.....The KISS Theory
 

Golf Illustrated Interview 1991.....

"A.J. Tomasello is one of the very few who have been able to break down this intimidating array of physical laws into a few basic movements that, far from being impossible, can leave a student asking "Can the golf swing really be this simple?"....

DG

Anymore Mantle stories Mizuno??????:D

GI - Golf Illustrated or GastroInteritis
 

Golf Illustrated Article - Mar, 1987 "If You Want More Distance You Must Increase Your Clubhead Arc"

Golf Illustrated Article - Apr, 1987 "Try A Compact Swing For More Power"

Is there a part three?

Chapter 3 is in the Gallery.
Lee sent a swing video to Tom after receiving Tom's instruction. What follows is more dialog specific to what Tom saw in the video and more personal instruction.
Lee, jump in and fill in the gaps if you wish.

Part 3
 

Interesting in part 3, he specifically states that you do not cock/uncock the right wrist. Different from what it looks like he's doing.

For what its worth
 

Today I went to the range and hit 15 balls employing Tomasellos down-and-out motion. Results were good. The feel was quite different from my normal swing. I took it to the grounds.

On the first hole I hit a 300 yard drive (best ever on that hole), a SW to 8 feet and made the putt. Other than the putt I employed the down-and-out and thought I'd changed my game forever. (This was only the third time I've birdied this particular hole. It is not easy. And starting the round with a birdie is alwas great.

So. Did I go on to birdie every hole?

Nope.

Not even a PB :mad: :)

But I definietely saw benefit.

One of my issues have been excess lateral movement on the downswing. Employing the down-and-out virtually eliminated it. Worked great as a key for me.

Thanks for sharing, Lee!

Thanks again Lee, Yoda, Bagger

Metallion,

I concur with the 300 yard drive...with this swing the trajectory is sweet when you hit one 300 yards. Just give it 3 to 6 months of practice and play and the consistency will go up nicely. One of the benefits of this swinging motion is the compatability with the hitting stroke pattern....just a few component changes and bammmmm you got another set of distances with your clubs.

DG

I should add...
 

True or not: My experience was that the down-and-out idea created

a feel of a Straight line delivery path from the top to Impact Hands location

as well as: (AND!)

A feel of the commonly referred karate chop action

All in the same move :cool:

Bagger,

No need to add anything, Tom said it all. He was helping me get rid of an occasional shot to the right.

As I said earlier, I hope these tapes help.

If there are any questions, I would be glad to answer.

ldeit

Dl Iii
 

Did DL jr pass this on to his son? I think it's a signature of DL III's swing that he brings the club past the left hip.

PS: Another great thread that gets you ... eh .... at least mee thinking.

I read DL3's book "Every shot I take" before I took the TGM plunge. It is a very nice book about golf and life. If you pick it up and read it with Tomasello glasses it might reveal that some of Tommys teachings were passed on.

The Sound of Silence
 

I just cannot believe that this kind of advice is getting such praise and that the knowledgeable instructors on this forum, who have surely seen this video, are saying NOTHING!:o

Tomasello is not only advising an independent arm effort from the top, but a deliberate uncocking of the wrists to boot. He is recommending 6-D-1 and 6-D-2, two of the pitfalls which produce THROW AWAY. And to make matters worse, he says that these are done BEFORE the pivot, which he claims is a reaction to these movements.:???:

Isn't Tomesello basically doing the release with roll that Yoda teaches except with the right arm feel?
below is a quote from Yoda.

From the Top, Drag Load (7-19) by Pulling the Butt End of the Club toward the Plane Line. Immediately thereafter, begin a Non-Automatic Random Sweep Release (10-24-B) -- later you can 'kick it up a notch' with the Automatic Snap Release of 10-24-E -- by Uncocking your Left Wrist strongly Downward, also toward the Plane Line. That takes only a fraction of a second, and just as soon as you Feel the strong, Downward Uncocking Motion underway, use its momentum to begin the Roll of your #3 Angle On Line through Impact. You've Launched a Three-Stage Rocket: The Drag Load established your initial Thrust; your Uncocking Left Wrist created the highest Velocity you will be able to achieve; and the #3 Accumulator picked up that Velocity and sustained it into Impact.

The pulling of the butt of the club downward, which Yoda describes, is done with the flywheel action of the shoulders - drag loading with initial shoulder thrust. Tomasello says throw the right arm down and out from the top and the pivot responds to that movement.

I feel you are reading too much into this. Even though I've seen the tape and even taken things from it to the course I'd never start the downswing by throwing my arms. I did not even hear him say that. My interpretation was rather that the straight-line-delivery karate-chop thing is what the hands need to do. But to be done "properly" some serious aid from the rest of the body is needed. To me he is talking about a visual that works for some. That visual may have been spot-on what Lee needed based on the tapes and questions that were sent to Tom.

When I saw the tape I felt that this is what he means:
1. [To the top] Hands have reached top. Now what. Just stay here or what?
2. [Hands-controlled-pivot] Then the hands and arms say: Please thrown us out and down on plane!
3. [Pivot response] Flywheel and pivot response

Remember this tape was made for a particular golfer, not for anyone.

And give the man a break. :smile: