Re: 'Net' Handspeed -- Swinging Versus Hitting
 

That's why Right Arm Swingers get more distance than momentum transfer swingers with their lower hand speed.

Yoda....I don't have a copy in front of me, but I believe "Search for the Perfect Swing" came out in the mid to late 60's (1965 or 1967??? someone with a copy handy clarify this....thanks). Or was it the research for the book that was done in the mid to late 60s???

DG

Search For The Not So Perfect Swing
 

Search For The Perfect Swing was published in 1968, the year before the 1969 publication of The Golfing Machine. No second edition was ever published -- Homer Kelley said it was because of fundamental errors that could not be resolved by the two authors (Cochran and Stobbs) or the various researchers involved. Interest in the book was revived in the mid-80s, and there have since been five printings, the first in 1986 and the last in 1999.

Re: 'Net' Handspeed -- Swinging Versus Hitting
 

Whenever the words 'Right Arm Swing' appear anywhere, I can bet you a million dollars that Delaware Golf is always just a step away! :lol:

Re: 'Net' Handspeed -- Swinging Versus Hitting
 

Yes.....and I do use a Right Arm Swing.....per Tomasello's July 1991 Golf Illustrated interview and his May 1992 video from his Deer Track studio.

PM me with any Right Arm Swing questions....

DG

Just curious.....

Am I the only one out of almost 1000 people that isnt entirely comfortable or doesnt entirely comprehend the previous posts on triggering and the relationships previously noted??? I dont argue for arguments sake, but when I am 'not getting it', I certainly will present my understanding. But I'm the only one????? Ok....I can live with that. I think.

I am still sorting through it Lynn and Tong - but I am having some issues reconciling everything. I hope to put a post up midweek, time allowing. But man am I in it deep!

Thanks!

Patrick

Yoda,

Put up Tomasello's May 1992 video and I think you will end Patrick's confusion!!!

DG

Re: 'Net' Handspeed -- Swinging Versus Hitting
 

Don't worry Phillygolf....there's lots of stuff in here that I have to read 5 times to get into my coconut. Good that you'd admit that cause I think that everyone gets this stuff so easily.

Could someone explain the difference between the two please?

App-reece-e-ate it.

Thanks.

-Paul

Hand Speed: Right Arm Swinging Versus Basic Swinging [arhh!]
 

First, we have to understand the logic behind DG's statement. Here are some reminders, and I hope I've presented them logically and clearly enough so you can understand it step by step.


(1) Ceteris Paribus, Momentum Transfer is more effective than Right Tricep Thrust for preventing Release Deceleration / slower RPM / slower Hand Speed / slower Belt Speed.

[Note: These terms are pretty much (but not exactly) synoymous and I will use whichever one I feel is best in this post.]


(2) What does 'more effective' mean? It means for a given RPM regardless of its actual magnitude, that number of RPM will decrease less, or not at all.

[Note: during Release, RPM cannot increase by definition]


(3) However, Right Tricep Thrust can produce a higher net Hand Speed than Momentum Transfer.

[Note: this statement is debatable. Lets assume it's true even though I cannot provide conclusive evidence. You really need two identical golfers to prove it, not two different golfers, which is what some research/photos is based on]

So even after its slow down, Hand Speed can still be higher than the golfer who's using Momentum Transfer. This is what's known as net Hand Speed, which is Hand Speed after Release Deceleration (if any).
Just to hammer this home I will give you an example.
Two Cars: Car A and Car B. Car A is travelling at 100 MPH and Car B at 110 MPH. Car B slows down to 105 MPH, but its net speed is still higher than Car A's even after the 5 MPH slow down. Car B is using Right Tricep Muscle Power and Car A is using Momentum Transfer.
This is only an example. Please don't take it as gospel and ask questions like "why can't Car B slow down to 90 MPH?" Well it can, but I will leave it to someone who's better qualified to discuss that.


(4) What is the Right Arm Swing? It is using the Right Arm to Pull the Clubshaft Longitudinally for Centrifugal Acceleration. So you're using the Right Arm to Pull, not Push.

[Note: you only push with the Right Arm if you're a Hitter or a Four-Barrel Swinger. The Four-Barrel Swing is not relevant to our discussion, because we're talking about Right Arm Swing (which can not be Four-Barreled -- again, interesting, but irrelevant)]


(5) This is where logic gets a bit shaky. Assuming that Right Tricep Thrust does produce a higher net Hand Speed than Momentum Transfer (see point (3)), we jump to the conclusion that a Right Arm Pulling Action (Rope Handle Technique) does also produce a higher net Hand Speed than Momentum Transfer.


Hence DG's statement above.

Now, did DG go through the same thoughts as me when he wrote that? I don't know, but that's how I am thinking, and I hope all of us here are 'reading on the same page'.

Right Tricep Thrust is required to execute the "Tomasello version" of the Right Arm Swing - how else can you extend the Right Arm outward while rotating in "one smooth motion" as he demonstrates in the video? This thrust must stop no later than the beginning of the pulley or else this pull becomes a push and the Swinger becomes a Switter, but he doesn't say this. In a true Swing, Right or Left Arm, it has to be CF which straightens the Right Arm.

Yoda,

Play the Tomasello tape!!!

DG

Here is a transcribed piece from the Tomasello video....

Tomasello: "See the formula for distance is velocity squared times mass = distance. Velocity squared, how fast are you moving the club---so it's not just centrifugal force, it's also what I call the whip (magic of the right forearm using a full sweep release)....absolutely it's the whip, it's a definite throwing action.....right from the top. "

Read 2-M-1 where it says..."Clubhead velocity is developed by Thrust, which is an Acceleration Force, and Thrust, herein, is normally constant regardless of the velocity it has produced. See 6-F-1. This Thrust may be Muscular Force and/or Centrifugal Force. Power is the total effective force that is impinged on the Ball---"

Is Tomasello far off?

Words are one thing, watching Tomasello demonstrate it is another thing....



DG

Re: 'Net' Handspeed -- Swinging Versus Hitting
 

Paul,

Handspeed is not an issue of hitting or swinging it's a matter of release type....I have to believe most TGM students don't experiment with all three.....in the book, Homer talks about mastering all of the release types.

Hmmmm how does a swinger generate a full sweep release with a full swing???

DG

Tomasello tape
 

Agree - please make the Tomasello tape available - sounds intriguing!

Re: Hand Speed: Right Arm Swinging Versus Basic Swinging [ar
 

Tongzilla,

It's a combination of Magic of the Right Forearm, Extensor Action, and Release Type....make that a Full Sweep Release. With the right arm swing, the action at the start down is two fold.....it's down and out along the plane angle. The right forearm is pulling down while at same time the right elbow is uncocking outward.....the body (pivot..responds to the action of the Right Forearm....THE MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM). Divergent Force Vectors (2-N-1)....go to 1-L and study #13 and 14 then 15.

This is a completely different approach to standard swinging....make that swinging with Momentum Transfer....it allows one to use his or her dominant arm.


On the May 1992 video, Tomasello does a great demonstration of swinging down and out on the plane angle. Turned Shoulder Plane Angle and Straight Line Delivery Path.
DG

Safety First
 

I have not once heard mention of the only Safety Warning that Homer put in the book. Just to be clear, we have nothing against the right arm swing except Homers warning in the last paragraph of 7-19.

"But with the Axe Handle procedure there must be a straight line piston action to avoid injury to the right elbow ligaments. So, if there is a twinge in the elbow, you are Swinging your right arm." Like everything else in the book, we take these words seriously.

This is why we don't endorse it. The right arm swing must be taught carefully, in person. Not via forums and videos, but by an authorized AI familiar with the procedure and one that can distinguish when it is done correctly and when it isn't.

IT'S A LIABILITY ISSUE and not something we recommend unless you are with professional instruction, Perferable with. Advisedly with! Imploredly with! 1-J.

We have nearly 1000 members and we want healthy folks seeking to maximize their potential visiting the Fit for Golf section.

Thanks,

Bagger

DG wrote, "The right forearm is pulling down while at same time the right elbow is uncocking outward.....".

The only way to pull the right forearm downplane with the right arm while at the same time uncocking the right elbow is by right tricep thrust. What other right arm muscle could do it? This immediately sets up a sweep release which means that this right tricep thrust is putting a radial force on the handle and not a longitudinal pull along the shaft. But this is the very definition of a Hitting procedure.

The only way to Swing with the right arm is to thrust the right elbow down plane to a late automatic release point at which time the right tricep is relaxed.

Re: Hand Speed: Right Arm Swinging Versus Basic Swinging [ar
 

I like this part.

Now I understand what a Right Arm Swinger is. Cool. Pull the rope down with the right arm instead of PP #4 or w/e.

Miz,

Not to contradict my last post but you can use longitudinal acceleration at start down 7-19 and release with loosened wrists and the 10-3-K bat procedure. The checkrein action of the left arm will straighten the right elbow without right tricep participation. Yoda will need to help clarify release for us.

I'll set up a thread just for Right Arm Swinging but it will carry the Surgeon Generals Warning.

Thanks,

Bagger

More Tommy To You
 

Tonight I reviewed the Tomasello-Dietrick tape in which Tommy discusses the move DG references. Interestingly, he never once calls it a Right Arm Swing. The essence of it is the Uncocking (Perpendicular Motion) of the Left Wrist, thereby preventing its Bending (Horizontal Motion). This is merely Lever Extension per 2-P.

Tommy does indeed talk about the move being Right Forearm motivated (from the Top) and views it as the antidote for Right Shoulder Turn Spin-Out. But, without his specific identification, it is impossible to determine if this is Right Arm Swing or merely the beginning of the Right Forearm's normal participation in either the Punch or Pitch Major Basic Strokes. Remember, the Right Forearm is the critical factor in each of the Major Basic Strokes, and it is under that Component (7-3) that the Magic of the Right Forearm is discussed. In fact, this is the term Tommy used to identify the move.

Also, Tommy's terminology (and demonstration) is somewhat suspect in that he several times refers to the Uncocking of the Right Wrist (as well as the Left). Lever Extension is a concept of fully Uncocking the Left Wrist, not the Right (which remains Level during Release as defined by the structure of the Right Forearm Flying Wedge.

So, whether or not Tommy is actually discussing Right Arm Swing is debatable. Which is not a bad thing, so let's do it! I'll send the tape to Bagger, and we'll put it up as the lead post in a separate thread. Then, with the caveat that the discussion will be kept civil and non-personal...

Let the Games begin!

Bagger - 7-19-3 is done with the right tricep in the Right Arm Swing. Otherwise, it's just an ordinary 3-barrel inert Left Arm Swing.

Re: More Tommy To You
 

Yoda,

It's the swinging stroke just like the Australia video....there is no demonstration of a full hitting stroke on this tape.

It's kinda of interesting that Tomasello just called it swinging in the Australia video....but both videos demonstrate a swinging motion that is right arm based.


Let's keep the competition on the golf course where it belongs...even Delaware Golf had a hard time accepting what Tomasello teaches on this tape after the first go round.....after a couple of viewings, it totally made sense and validated Tom's 1991 GI interview.

The video is approximately 30 minutes long.....it's Tom Tomasello in his Deer Track studio in Myrtle Beach....this may be one of Tom's last video's, you'll see why during the beginning of the tape. I was able to study with Tom privately for three days approximately 18 months later in October of 1993....with his sick wife; it appeared Tom wasn't teaching much if at all at this point. During my lesson with Tom, he talked about achieving goals....he read an excerpt from a journal he kept on his playing and teaching....in this one entry from 1983 he talked about his playing.....every time he hit the golf course he was shooting par or better.

DG

Just watch the Tomasello video and listen to his comments about the right forearm. No mention of Triceps.

DG

DG - How is the right forearm moving downplane? You say the pivot responds to the right forearm movement, so something else had to get it moving. There are only 2 ways to move it in such a way as to start uncocking the right elbow directly from the Top - by cranking the right shoulder or right tricep thrust. But if it's the right shoulder with an inert right tricep, then that's just an ordinary 3-barrel inert left arm sweep release Swing with the mind in the right forearm rather than in the hands. The only thing left is the right tricep.

Just because he doesn't mention tricep doesn't mean he isn't using it.

The real tipoff is the elbow uncocking from the Top - how could that possibly be thought to result in the transfer of the swing center from the left shoulder to the right elbow which Homer says happens in a right arm Swing? The only way that transfer concept makes sense is to thrust the cocked right elbow to a fixed position and then let the momentum transfer uncock it.

Handspeed and Release Types
 

Handspeed is important for Hitters and Swingers. Both have different ways in dealing with its slowdown during Release per my previous posts.

There are only two Release Types: Automatic and Non-Automatic. There I go again... :wink:

The swinger performs a Full Sweep Release by Triggering Non-Automatically immediately during Start Down, with either a Hand Throw or Right Arm Throw.

Just a few points
 

The Stoke Center for the Right Arm Swing is the Right Elbow. So Low Point is constantly moving forward in the Downstroke. If you want the ball to be struck before Low Point (which is the case for 99% of shots played, except the Lob Shot), the Right Elbow needs to be in front of the ball :?! I believe this is a dead giveaway for a Right Arm Swing.

Also, because of the Right Elbow Center (rather than the Left Shoulder), the Swing Radius is shortened considerably :( .

Re: Handspeed and Release Types
 

Your right Tongzilla....now read 10-24-A and 10-24-B and checkout what Power Package Release Homer uses for 12-1-0 and 12-2-0 then go back and read 10-24-A and 10-24-B again.....then watch the upcoming Tomasello video and see what conclusions you come to. Then we'll chat again....


DG

The motion of the right forearm is down and out on the plane angle....

DG

Re: Just a few points
 

If the right elbow needs to be in front of the ball with the right arm swing, then how was i hitting shots last night?

I don't understand what you wrote above. I was messing around with the swing Tomasello describes in his video and i was using a 5 iron. Ball was posistioned just inside myleft heel. I highly doubt my right elbow got past the ball before i hit the shot.

<---confused

Re: Just a few points
 

Right Elbow is Swing Center for the Right Arm Swing by definition. So Low Point is directly beneth it. There should be no debate about that I hope! Just Homer's definition. End of story.

So if your Ball was struck before Low Point last night, and your Right Elbow didn't get past the Ball, then whatever you're doing, it ain't a Right Arm Swing! So don't be confused!

Oil And Water
 

The Minor Basic Strokes classify the various Arm Motions used normally in the Short Shots. Homer Kelley early on defined the Pull Minor Basic Stroke used for the Longitudinal, Centrifugal Acceleration of Swinging, i.e., you Pull the Clubshaft through Impact. Somewhere along the way, he realized he had no Minor Basic Stroke for the Hitter's Radial, Muscular Acceleration, i.e., you Push the Clubshaft through Impact. Hence, the aptly named Bat, a short, strong Thrust that is as pure a Hitting procedure as you'll ever see.

Now, it is true that Homer himself characterized the Right Arm Swing as "the Bat with loosened Wrists." However, their only similarities are the active Right Arm participation and the Right Elbow Stroke Center. Otherwise, the two Strokes retain their separate identities, poles apart on the spectrum that is Swinging versus Hitting.

Re: Oil And Water
 

Let's kick the tires and light the fires Big Daddy!

Why did Homer call it a right arm swing, if the right arm swing using 10-3-K is a Hit through impact?

I'm not the stand up guy. I really want to know.

Bagger

Re: Oil And Water
 

Bagger,

In the video you will see of Tomasello there is NO HIT....it's one smooth motion (even (constant) acceleration) from start down....it's a true swing per 10-11-0-1....Tomasello is using the MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM with a FULL SWEEP RELEASE....what I believe happens is....one achieves maximum handspeed with NO throwaway results. I have generated all kinds of great shots with this procedure....pinpoint accurate sandwedges to 300 yard drives with spectacular boring trajectory. Just read the Tomasello interview in GI

GI: What happens to the shots of a player who executes these moves?

Tomasello: The player will immediately hit the ball higher and straighter, and substantially longer. The flight pattern will be dead straight to its apex, with the ball falling a touch left or drawing fractionally as it decends.

DG

Differentiating The Right Arm Swing And The Bat
 

The Right Arm Swing is not a Hit through Impact. Nor does it employ the Bat as the means to its end. Instead, it is a Swing with active Right Arm participation and a Right Elbow Center. These last two characteristics are also attributes of the Hitter's Bat Minor Basic Stroke, but that is where the association ends. The 'loosened Wrists' of the Right Arm Swing give that Stroke its Rope Handle character, just as the rigid Wrists of the Bat give it its Axe Handle character.

But the Bat (driven by Muscular Thrust) is not the Right Arm Swing (driven by Centrifugal Force).

Or vice versa.

Re: Differentiating The Right Arm Swing And The Bat
 

I believe the right arm swing has both muscular thrust and centrifugal force per 2-M-1....the Full Sweep or Random Sweep release gives the right arm swing its swing characteristics (lengthwise acceleration...longitudinal acceleration).....however, there has to be a release action when using right arm acceleration....whether the release is early or late is the players choice.....if the player employs maximum trigger delay and a snap release, the action becomes more of a hit rather than a swing. In the right arm swing, the golfer DOES NOT drive the right arm through impact without a releasing action (or you will get a clubhead throwaway condition per 6-D-2)....the trigger is non-automatic instead of an automatic trigger.

DG

Right Arm Swinging: Point / Counterpoint
 

Delaware Golf's Points listed in order with Yoda's Counterpoints bolded:

1. I believe the right arm swing has both muscular thrust and centrifugal force per 2-M-1.

There is a fine line between a Muscular Thrust that Radially Drives the Clubhead and a Muscular Thrust that Longitudinally generates a Centrifugal Force that Drives the Clubhead. That fine line differentiates Hitting from Right Arm Swinging.

2. ...the Full Sweep or Random Sweep release gives the right arm swing its swing characteristics (lengthwise acceleration...longitudinal acceleration).

The Release Point has nothing to do with Swinging versus Hitting. Both Swingers and Hitters can release the Club as soon as possible (Full Sweep), as late as possible (Snap) or somewhere in between (Random Sweep).

3......however, there has to be a release action when using right arm acceleration.

Agreed. Right Arm or Left, with or without Body Momentum Transfer, Accumulated Power must be Released.

4....whether the release is early or late is the players choice.

Agreed, and per Item 2 above, that player can be either Swinger (Right Arm or Left) or Hitter.

5. ....if the player employs maximum trigger delay and a snap release, the action becomes more of a hit rather than a swing.

Longitudinal Acceleration and Radial Acceleration determine the physics of Swinging or Hitting, not Trigger Delay and Release Type.

6. In the right arm swing, the golfer DOES NOT drive the right arm through impact without a releasing action (or you will get a clubhead throwaway condition per 6-D-2).

Per Item 3 above, Accumulated Power must be Released. However, both Left Arm and Right Arm Swingers use Centrifugal Force Throw-Out Action to drive the Club, not Muscular Thrust Drive-Out Action.

7. ...the trigger is non-automatic instead of an automatic trigger.

Both Left Arm and Right Arm Swingers can use the Aiming Point procedure to effect an Automatic Trigger.

Re: Right Arm Swinging: Point / Counterpoint
 

Yoda,

Just play the tape!!!

DG

Yoda: a very clear post that puts everything in TGM terminology. TGM is here so we can make finer distinctions that would otherwise not be possible.

Deleware Golf: you are promoting TT's Right Arm Swing, not just any old Right Arm Swing, correct? In that sense, you are teaching a method/procedure, am I right? Would you teach this Pattern to most golfers?

It's not any old right arm swing (and it's not TT's right arm swing).....it is the right arm swing.

DG

Hang On, DG!
 

I'm sending the Tomasello-Dietrick tape to Bagger today. However, as has been announced, we are going offline tomorrow at noon for scheduled site maintenance. We will be back in 24-72 hours (no later than Sunday evening) with a whole new look and functionality. 8) The new tape will be up when we return. :D

Re: Hang On, DG!
 

The tape will be up shortly after we return. We will have our hands full for the next week making sure everything is stablized.

In the mean time. I prefer to understand the Right Arm Swing based on Homers definition. There is common terminology.
Assuming Yoda is correct about the tape not even mentioning the right arm swing, I'm not certain there is much to learn other than some variations on the left arm swing. But for the sake of this thread, let's assume the tape is all about the right arm swing.

Bagger