Role of The Pivot
 

I need answers.... :wink:

What is the role of the pivot in TGM?

Hitting or swinging?

The role of the Pivot in TGM, for both Hitting and Swinging is:

Twisting the body and shifting the weight during the Stroke to maintain balance, a motionless head and any required axis tilt of the torso.

The Pivot must get out of the way of the Hands in order for them to do their job properly. Failure to do this may result in Roundhousing, which, according to Homer, "can initiate almost every alignment disruption".


The Pivot for Hitters:
Launching Pad / backstop used to resist the Muscular Right Arm Push after the Start Down.

The Pivot for Swingers:
Massive rotor supplying Momentum Transfer to Throw Out the Swinger's Left Arm.

I should have been more explicit...I was really asking "does the pivot supply any power in swinging."

From the book, it is as per tongzilla says.

Pivot is not a component in 6-B, the power package.

But to raise a point that tongzilla made on the pivot being "the massive rotor", one can question

"the faster we turn the rotor, does it mean longer shots?"

The Pivot Delivers the Loaded Power Package into Impact. The faster the Delivery, the more Clubhead speed you'll have. Increasing Pivot Lag is one way to increase the rate of Delivery.

Pivot components reflect Stroke components, so the pivot can be full range or zero. This would be the only way, visually, one can see a pivot as contributing to the power of a shot. But we know that this is just a seems to be because the pivot's job is to maintain alignments and rhythm, so the power package can be executed. If the pivot tries to add - above and beyond, alignments and rhythm suffer.

If the pivot tries to add - above and beyond, alignments and rhythm suffer.

If the pivot supplies the power and one cannot add with the hands what good is extensor action??
The video of Homer swinging quote, "coming down on the ball as if to drive it into the ground". No mention of pivot only the hands driving the ball into the ground. The pivot follows the lead of the hands going down and out.

Isn't pp#4 essentially pivot power?

I like this one... :D

This is my opinion on the matter...

For the swinger using pp4 as the direct thrust to drag the primary lever assembly. The pivot is doing the work via the direct thrust of pp4 but it is guided by using pp3 (or rotated lag pressure point equivalent) which is used to monitor plane alignments.

pp4 does the work
pp3 guides

Homer was referencing just merely the geometry of the circle and how you still have to go down and out through impact... IMO

You misunderstand extensor action- it moves nothing. It does not move the left arm just tugs it, stretches it like a stubborn tight bungee cord that needs constant attention to remain pulled.
That is not adding. Adding is removing rhythm by forcing more hand into the stroke near impact.
Ben says no “adding.” Yoda says “no try just do.”

Read in the glossary Homers definition of Pivot, “.....holding the clubshaft “On Plane” by positioning and adjusting the Lever Assembly, through #3 Accumulator, as directed by the right forearm.” (And my guess the Flying Wedge Assembly too)

A trained pivot is the number one zone and the point Homer said to begin. To me the pivot is the hips- the hip action and its motion. The hips must clear. As Ted Fort says, hips cannot be roadblocks, they must be highways. And that comes form a trained pivot.
There is nothing wrong with the pivot moving the hands or the pivot responding to the arm swing and hands. They’re both move the same way because both must be hand trained and both MUST produce the same Pace and Rhythm into impact. How you want to perceive it is just semantics and your “seems to be.”

9-1 Zone #1 ... ‘Emphatically, Hands are not educated until they control the Pivot.”

The pivot transports the power package, and the power accumulators of the hands. The link is the only accumulator not in the hands, the Master Accumulator- the Rhythm Accumulator- Number Four. The left arm part pivot, part power package. The pivot will transport the hands and the hands with a turning pivot spends the accumulators.

Power Package / Right Arm Thrust
 

Slightly off topic, but...

Are the terms "Power Power Package Thrust" and "Right Arm Thrust" synonymous? What's the difference between the two?

Re: Power Package / Right Arm Thrust
 

Remember the Right Shoulder is part of the Power Package.

Re: Power Package / Right Arm Thrust
 

So Swinger must use Power Package thrust also...but that forfeits momentum transfer...

You misunderstand extensor action- it moves nothing. It does not move the left arm just tugs it, stretches it like a stubborn tight bungee cord that needs constant attention to remain pulled.
That is not adding. Adding is removing rhythm by forcing more hand into the stroke near impact.
Ben says no “adding.” Yoda says “no try just do.”

That implies that the right arm does little. Pivot alone? I have to tell the right hand to extend the arm.
Watching Homer the right arm goes from an "L" position to a straight one past impact. How can Homer not be adding???

Seems to be a difference of opinion between BD, Yoda, BM and CE? Do I need to ask Homer?

Re: Power Package / Right Arm Thrust
 

Tongzilla- Regarding your question – Is Power Package Thrust the same as Right Arm Thrust- I think it would be helpful to first clearly layout the area of confusion- at least I am assuming that your question arises from 2-M-3.

QUOTE:
“2-M-3. MUSCLES Unless Pivot Thrust actually drives #4 Accumulator through Impact, its assignment during that interval is more clearly defined if considered as delivery, guidance and support of the Power Package, because it may or may not have contributed anything but motion during Delivery. The Pattern of the Stroke being used designates where Thrust is to originate and that is completely the player’s option. See 104 and 10-19. Pivot Thrust alone (2-K), forfeits Right Arm Thrust (6-B-1). Power Package Thrust alone (6-0), forfeits Momentum Transfer (2-K). Only with the driver must you use both Pivot Thrust and Power Package Thrust for lack of a longer Club. In which case- to Pivot Thrust add a strong Pressure Point #4 (typo- corrected in the 7th edition- should read #1) thrust per 10-19-C. Or to Power Package Thrust add the Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4. Study 4-D-0, 6-B-2-B (Typo- Should read 6-C-2-B), and 10-4-D in this connection.” UNQUOTE

In general, Power Package (6-0) Thrust would include all or any combination of the four accumulators and their associated pressure points (10-4). So the terms Power Package Thrust and Right Arm Thrust are not synonymous- the first could be all or any combination of all of the accumulators while the second would be only accumulator #1 applied to either pressure point #1 and/or #3. However, the confusion arises out of the 2-M-3 section where I believe he is using the general Power Package Thrust term in a much more specific way (Right Arm), but let’s analyze the 1st paragraph in 2-M-3, where if it were me- I would in general change the following for clarification, ignoring any particular grammatical issues
.
1st
“Power Package Thrust alone (6-0), forfeits Momentum Transfer (2-K).”

Change to

“Right Arm Thrust alone (6-B-1) forfeits Momentum Transfer (2-K).”

2nd
“Only with the driver must you use both Pivot Thrust and Power Package Thrust for lack of a longer Club”

Change to

“Only with the driver would you have the optional need to use both Pivot Thrust and Right Arm Thrust for the lack of a longer Club”.

As for all other clubs, it would be far more convenient to just use a longer Club for getting more distance using a three barrel stroke. That optional need would be rare, as in wanting to drive a par 4 that normally was just out of reach, etc. Not that someone couldn’t Master a 4-barrel stroke but due to the issues of Mastering and difficulty- for most, the 4-barrel is not the stroke that would be used on a day-to-day situation.

3rd
“Or to Power Package Thrust add the Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4”

Change to

“Or to Right Arm Thrust add the Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4”

At least that’s my take on your question.

And for those of you who are obsessive TGM fans- here’s a would be addition to the 7th edition that I believe did not make it into the 7th edition revisions- for whatever reason, but resonates with the unique writing style of Homer Kelley.

2-M-3 (3rd Paragraph last three lines- existing)
“However, tremendous energy can be consumed in trying to offset conflicting alignments, without ever achieving the player’s full speed potential. Study 5-0 in this connection.”

Followed by the addition of:
“These three lines classifies and catalogs those golfers who employ loops, plane angle shifts, unnecessary motions that disrupts the clubshaft’s orbit and plane….without the employment of Educated Hands to create the collision of Impact between club and ball, the nickname of Golf would herein be termed as “the game of whiffs”.

Mike O

Thank you Mike O. Yes, confusion arises from 2-M-3. You knew exactly what I was thinking about in regards to my question 8).

So the problem is that Homer was being too general in his use of the term Power Package.

“Or to Right Arm Thrust add the Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4". I don't get this statement. 2-M-4 doesn't seem to mention shoulder turn. Is it referring to the backstroke shoulder turn and downstroke shoulder turn? Hmm...to me right arm thrust is right arm thrust, nothing really to do with the shoulder, ok...right arm pushes off the right shoulder, but...

Downstroke Acceleration And The Right Shoulder
 

The Thrust of the Downstroke Shoulder Turn supplies the initial acceleration of the Lever Assemblies (6-B-4-0).

Re: Downstroke Acceleration And The Right Shoulder
 

Yes, but this initial acceleration exists for both Hitters and Swingers, whether you're using Right Arm Thrust or Pivot Thrust.

And what opinion are you referring? Read 1-F. The action of the right arm is always driving due to the unfolding of the right elbow but in a Swing Stroke it adds no muscle power. I think LB, BD, and BM would not disagree on this.

Many people thought that Canton would reveal different ideologies between Ben, Brian and Lynn. It didn’t. Homer would have loved it. Ask him.

I still feel the pivot is the most misunderstood TGM procedure.

The Right Arm has contributed nothing but Motion for the Swinger, as opposed to Right Arm Action for the Hitter.

It cannot be 100% passive because of Extensor Action.

The push from the Right Triceps that pulls the Left Arm straight is constant. This steady effort to pull the Left Arm into a fixed length does not increase during the Downstroke or Release.

Just because you see the right arm straightening during the Follow Through doesn't mean you're "adding". Centrifugal Force (as opposed to active Right Arm Thrust for the Hitter) uncocks both the Swinger's Right Elbow and Left Wrist during Release.

Leo, you are becoming a tour de Force. :D

Yoda,

Please put the Tomasello May 1992 video (from his Myrtle Beach studio) that Lee Deitrick gave you on the LBG Classic Movies section....it would add nicely to the debate that is being discussed on this thread regarding the role of the pivot and right arm.

DG

Re: Downstroke Acceleration And The Right Shoulder
 

Tongzilla,
First, I would think that we need to acknowledge that Lynn spot on answered you previous question. You've followed it with a statement- and possibly some implied question- which makes it tough to respond. Although, I'm assuming it's a little foggy and you're making a statement for others to confirm or clarify (could be wrong on that). Regarding your statement, I would think, strictly speaking and per his reference in 2-M-3 regarding "Or to Power Package Thrust add the Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4.", that semi-quoting you "the initial acceleration exists for the Hitter IF he/she is using a 4 barrel stroke, but not if it's just accumulators 1,2,3. In contrast, the swinger would normally have Pivot Thrust for a 3 barrel full stroke. In summary, I would emphasize that if you are using Right Arm Thrust nothing says that you will have Pivot Thrust- you only have "this initial acceleration" if you are using Pivot Thrust- and for Hitting that would be 4 barrel. That's at least the basic template- I'm using words such as normally and strictly speaking because you really have an infinite number of options and possibilities depending on the length of the stroke and what accumulators you choose to use, etc.

Finally, this is a discussion of one of the mechanics of the golf stroke- not a discussion of the procedural method used to swing a golf club.

Re: Downstroke Acceleration And The Right Shoulder
 

Thanks again Mike for reading between the lines. I didn't write in a foggy manner intentionally, but sometimes I feel I get really good answers that way, rather than asking lots of specific questions.

This was the reason for my confusion: I've seen a post from Yoda somewhere that says
"both Swinger and Hitter 'Crank', i.e., at Start Down, each tightens the Left Side Tension that supplies the initial Pull of the Downstroke."
Yoda does not mention that this initial pull is only experienced by the four-barrel Hitter with the new acc#4 (as opposed to a three barrel hitter), which was what you were saying in your previous post, correct?

Going a step back...
“Or to Right Arm Thrust add the Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4."
I assume the above statement is directed to the 3 Barrel Swinger (Acc #2/3/4) who wants the add the final missing Acc #1 to his pattern. Am I right?
So, Yoda says , "The Thrust of the Downstroke Shoulder Turn supplies the initial acceleration of the Lever Assemblies (6-B-4-0)."
But the 3-Barrel Swinger already has this Downstroke Shoulder Turn Thrust (as per my first Yoda quote above), am I right?

Once again, thank you to Yoda and Mike for your patience.

More Tommy?
 

I'll revisit that idea, DG. Thanks.

Re: Downstroke Acceleration And The Right Shoulder
 

Tongzilla, In regards to:
“Or to Right Arm Thrust add the Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4."
I assume the above statement is directed to the 3 Barrel Swinger (Acc #2/3/4) who wants the add the final missing Acc #1 to his pattern. Am I right?

Read 2-M-3 again- which is where this quote is from. The statement is directed to the 3 barrel Hitter- i.e. Right Arm Thrust - Accumulator #1 and then to make it a 4 barrel Hitting procedure you need to add the Pivot Thrust on the downstroke or as he puts it here "add the Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4", to add the final missing Acc #4 to his pattern.

Mike O.

Re: Downstroke Acceleration And The Right Shoulder
 

Tongzilla Quote:"
This was the reason for my confusion: I've seen a post from Yoda somewhere that says
"both Swinger and Hitter 'Crank', i.e., at Start Down, each tightens the Left Side Tension that supplies the initial Pull of the Downstroke."
Yoda does not mention that this initial pull is only experienced by the four-barrel Hitter with the new acc#4 (as opposed to a three barrel hitter), which was what you were saying in your previous post, correct?" Unquote

Most of what you quote Lynn above, is really his place to clarify, etc., and Lynn is very, very good, so if he finds it important and has the time, he'll explain any question you might have.

However, I would clarify a couple of things that you said.
Yes, I was talking about adding #4 to a three barrel (1,2,3) Hitter. Using #4 or not, really is the basic determination of whether you are a 4 barrel Hitter. Remember that using it means that you're loading it - not just going through the motions.

In addition, you said "this initial pull is only experienced by the four-barrel Hitter with the new acc#4...."
You don't really want to use the term pull- for a number of reasons. Pull is swinging and now we're using the term for Hitting- not good. If you look at 2-M-4 or 6-B-4- Homer doesn't use the term pull or push for #4 accumulator, it's always for Hitting or Swinging- Thrust or Acceleration, etc., the basic nature of accelerating #4 is the same for both Hitting and Swinging- in the mechanical sense (6-B-4 & 7-13). The Pull (Swinging) or Push (Hitting) are broader concepts for the overall procedure and not appropriately used in regard to the #4 accumulator. Of course, the whole thing (Hitting or Swinging) is drastically different and there are subtle differences between the two different #4 accumulators as a result of the context of the whole movement i.e. different loading procedures create different feels etc. Don't ask me to explain the subtle differences- practically speaking I don't think it's that important and I'm subconsciously aware of them but without some effort - wouldn't be able to answer your question. Plus, I never Hit. Not saying I don't know how, and not saying it's not a great procedure- I just don't use it.

Finally, every now and then I make some basic disclosures for clarification purposes.
1) I'm always open for interpretation or correction- no one's perfect.
2) I'm always giving only my viewpoint, not necessarily "THE GOLFING MACHINE VIEWPOINT"- and I'm always trying to be precise in the terms and help you or others understand the concepts of the Golfing Machine as I see them. That precision/clarification/viewpoint could be interpreted as nitpicky (yes), cocky (not the intent), or attacking (not the intent). I've been around enough that I think most to everyone understands that- but when you're not in person with someone - one on one- and you're using the forum to correct other peoples concepts, based on your viewpoint- it can get a little awkward. I've always approached it as if I was on the otherside and with my personality I would disregard any perceived issues and really appreciate the "direction". That said Tongzilla, as someone alluded to earlier in this thread- you are doing a nice job of picking up the concepts - a lot of progress!

Bad English in 2-M-3
 

Oh yes, that makes sense now. I should've read through Homer's codified English.

2-M-3: "Or to Power Package [Right Arm] Thrust add Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4" [Brackets by tongzilla]

I thought Homer was saying "if you want to have Right Arm Thrust, you need to add Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4". Which confused me. ](*,)

So what Homer was actually trying to say was "if you already use Right Arm Thrust (i.e. you're a Hitter), and you want to add Pivot Thrust to achieve the Four Barrel Stroke, then add Shoulder Turn per 2-M-4".

Being a bit too politically correct
 

You are so damn funny Mike ;).

I am just here to learn, and sometimes explaining concepts to other people help speed up that process. Plus it feels good when people go "aha, I get it now!".

Collective Wisdom
 

"We teach what we want to learn."

-- Kahil Gibran


"To teach is to learn twice."

-- Joseph Joubert


"Who dares to teach must never cease to learn."

-- John Cotton Dana

You can't get better. 'Til you get better
-Buckshot (Famously uttered at Liberty Drive round ball court as Buckshot dribbled yet another ball off of his foot with a cigarette dangling from his lip. A grown man collecting a disability check playing pick up basketball with high school kids drunk on a Tuesday afternoon) SUBLIME.

I was beating balls out of the dirt today and thinking about the time old TGM question- Is it the Pivot or the Hands? Since I am working on my hip action- my pivot sensation is truly heightened. Oddly, when I perform the pivot just right, it disappears and I can only sense my left arm’s rhythm and swivel.
I think that as neophytes we get hammered with the phrase, “Hands controlled Pivot” and never really understand the role of each. Hands train and the pivot works as trained.

The pivot cannot trace the plane line.
The hands and arms cannot shift weight or rotate the hips horizontally.

So....
The hands stay on the incline flat swing plane and trace the plane line and the pivot shifts weight, relocates the swing center and clears a lane for the hands to trace into impact.

7-14/7-15 Hula Hula - funny name, but another TGM gem not taught anywhere else.

As they say in New Jersey - Perfect Together.

Right now the Yankees are doing the Hula Hula!!!!!!!!!!!

I need sleep but wanted to PM you. Is this great or what !!???

As I said, Yankess, White Sox and Indians. No redsux.

Going to Balt next week to watch the Yanks with my son. We will lose our voices.

"sustain the lead"

mike

"It aint ova' yet"
 

Still got time left. Yanks keep up this pace.

It's not over until the fat "Irish Tenor" sings.

Sounds like that Irish Tenor is approaching his last verse. That high note is just around the corner!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Bad English in 2-M-3
 

Just so we don't leave anything hanging- the answer to your last paragraph question would be YES.