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Incubate this!!!
The shoulder only stroke and the arm only stroke. There is no other mechanical stroke which stands up to them. A left arm stroke could be classified, so also a wrist only stroke, as well as a blend of any of the above four. BLENDING is not MENDING so I would stay away from taking any of the two and combining them.
The arm only stroke uses a push or putt basic stroke and the right elbow acts as a piston WHILE the right forefinger traces a straight plane line. The shoulders can move because they are considered a part of the power package as well as the pivot, however it is best to keep them steady as possible. Here the right arm will continue to push, straighten, and trace all the way to BOTH ARMS ARE STRAIGHT. This would have the putter head traveling down/out/and/forward to the low point oppo0site the left shoulder. The shoulder only stroke utilizes the turning of the shoulders on an incline plane. As with all strokes the hands educate the pivot so tracing a staight plane line, moving the putter head along a plane board (angle) or using a curved device (putting arc) will teach the shoulders to move on an incline plane. The right shoulder must move on plane to keep the putter head moving on plane during the shoulder only stroke. The shoulder only stroke moves the Thorasic Spinal region, not the lumbar or cerebral. Therefore the low point of the shoulder only stroke would be opposite the Thorasic Region of the spine which is slightly further back than that of the left shoulder. So low point for the shoulder only stroke and low point for the right arm stroke are different. |
Re: Incubate this!!!
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Hue,
I believe ball position MUST change. In my opinion ball position should be at or near low point, but never in front of low point. No hitting up on putts ladies and gentelman. The shoulder stroker would have the ball middle, off the spine, the right arm stroker at the left shoulder or just behind it. |
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Arm only stroke
I switched to a arm only stroke when I visited Ted and Yoda in February earlier this year. At first it felt strange setting up but I saw a difference right away in striking the ball more in the center of the putter (distinctive sound when the putter hits the ball square in the center). The ball was definitely rolling better.
Took a couple of months to get used to a open stance with allignments and reading putts, but now I am completely comfortable with it. I get a lot of comments about it (I was in a tournament and someone asked a friend of mine why I putt like that), but the results speak for themselves. I averaged 36 putts last year a round, and had several 3 putts a round. Now I average 31 putts and the 3 putts are pretty infrequent. I am definitely a fan of the arm only stroke. Keith PS-I have played a lot of golf this summer and haven't seen anyone else use this procedure yet (don't play with any TGM'ers though). |
KRpainter,
You don't get a lot of arm only strokes out there yet. The reason is quite simple, we as golfers do what we see the best do. The majority of tour players use a shoulder only stroke. Therefore, we grow up utilizing this stroke. The trouble comes when we mix. I would compare it to "switting" where there are components that are just not inter-changeable. I believe you will see more right arm strokes in the future. |
Is Chris Dimarco a right-arm guy?
He uses the "Claw" or w/e.... Seems like he'd drive with his right hand... BTW nice site VJ: http://www.troliogolf.com/index.html Good stuff....I like this quote: “Most amateurs, and professionals for that matter, would lower their putting average by not trying so hard to make the putt go in the hole but by focusing on hitting the putt solidly.” -VJ Trolio Can't believe I've never thought of that in my game...I think it will help me. |
After picking Ted's head on the putting green over in Canton. I made a major change in my putting stroke. I have always had a nice pendulum stroke and have always made a good share of putts but --not lately. Ted spoke of the right shoulder moving up and down and to imagine a pen or marker on that shoulder drawing a straight vertical line. I also added a right arm drive, a slight fold and push to go along with the new shoulder action. It is like throwing darts. Far more accurate then my old arms hang low pendulum stroke. I even have to re-educate my eyes in trusting what straight is.
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As I wrote earlier Mike, that right arm extension tracing the plane line is amazing. It feels like the arm is going down to the target itself. Try even on the very short puts 3 footers, you will hit the back of the hole every time if you use this extensior action. Its made a world of a difference for me atleast. The ball i find has given me the best response in my 35 years of playing. What a time to discover it. Though I have made m y share of putts, this feel is far superior to earlier. and as you would agree --ITS a feeeeeeeeeel thing...
Vikram |
Mr. Kelley wrote of his belief that hitting and swinging should not be mixed for fear of the switter. In the golf swing there are 10 non-interchangeble components (stroke basic, variation,hinge,pressure point combination,left wrist action, lag loading, trigger type, power package assembly,loading,and delivery.
I feel that using #1 (the right arm) will produce an angled hinge and this is arm only putting. I feel that using the shoulders (pivot power, #4) should not be mixed with the use of #1. Use either, but Mr. Kelley, I feel, said don't use both. |
There is a very slight shoulder movement that occurs in my putting stroke now, I guess I am an arm putter but since the shoulders will move as the right arm folds, just a little , it now moves on a truer vertical plane. I do not feel as though my shoulders do much at all.
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Now i know why my ball position is just left of my head (shoulder stroke)
Thanks VJ! |
Jim,
That is what i am here for. Remember that ball position and the reason why. That way our grandchildren will never putt with the ball off their front toe while using a shoulder stroke. |
Grip Difference
VJ, Is the grip different in right arm putting?
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My virgin post, in putting
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I love your stuff and have read many of your posts, and I think this is my virgin post about putting. Additionally, if Yoda tells me someone is "the man", I take him at his word. He's very impressed with your knowledge. And, I would agree with your assessments above. But, I'll convey to you my personal experience. I have always been a great putter. Until I met Yoda, I couldn't hit it in the ocean from the beach. I was terrible with three dimensional impact. So, only recently have I been able to move up the ranks in our Section events, with better ball striking. I've always been 10-3-H (Paw) with both arms frozen and bent. I've done this as long as I've been playing, and only recently (met Yoda in Feb. '04) have I found out the reason it worked so well. I think the putting arc is a great tool, especially for the right arm stroke. I, personally, find the arc difficult to use as my plane of inclination seems to be so steep (if not vertical). I have the feeling of covering the line instead of tracing and the feeling of pure vertical hinging, not dual vertical. It's controlled steering. I know one of the tools you use is the laser to trace an inclined plane on the wall, but mine borders on vertical. Am I smoking weed? Or, can you explain why this method is such an asset to me? P.S. I'm looking forward to our school at Old Waverly. |
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Thanks for your original post it helped clear some fog for me. I like to use an arm only stroke as I am a hitter and using my right arm seems to match up great with the rest of my game. Putting now is a stage one motion to me. My question for you is..... Is the "putting arc" a good tool to use for the arm only stroke. Or how should a go about tracing my plane line in an arm only stroke???? Thanks for all your help I look forward to your reply. Sorting Through the Instructor's Textbook. B-Ray |
The Putting Arc is a good tool for the right arm stroke, notice I said good. The plane angle of the putting arc runs from the sweet spot of the putter THROUGH the right shoulder (thorasic area of the spine) and the plane is called by MR. Kelley the LEFT SHOULDER PLANE with its designation of X in the 3rd Edition.
The push basic stroke will travel on the ELBOW PLANE which is flatter than the LEFT SHOULDER PLANE. This means the the projection of this flatter plane angle on the ground will result in curvature in the arc of approach and arc of seperatiion. The difference in these two planes ranges from 5 to 8 degrees usually. This will not create an enormous diffence, possibly one in which we cannot even feel, however there is a difference. Bushnell,and Golfjustlikethepros.com both have lasers you can attach to your putter for tracing a straight line. They attach to the shaft and throw a line of laser light to the ground. That is really good. Also you can use the side of a bench or pvc to move the shaft along and it will teach you this feel. |
Nicklaus/Arms only stroke?
VJ,
Would you say the Jack Nicklaus was an arms only putter. Also since the arms only stoke lends itself to angled hinging, does the putter leave the true arc just after low point and go a bit out to 1st base? |
Thanks VJ
This needs a STICKY !
It is the raw facts about putting... fantastic information. Thanks VJ |
The Putting Left Shoulder Plane And Zero Shift
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And while the Push Basic Stroke most certainly can use the Elbow Plane, that Variation (10-6-A) was not specified. What gives? :confused1 The Left Shoulder Plane of the 3rd Edition is established by the Zero #3 Accumulator Angle (Club in the cup of the Left Hand). Later editions referenced the "theoretical" Left Shoulder Plane but recommended that it is "far better" to consider it as Zero #3 Accumulator (7-13). Finally, the Hinge Action Variation is Vertical Only (10-10-B) and not Dual Vertical (10-10-E). With Vertical Only Hinge Action, the Clubhead Covers the Plane Line, i.e., it remains in the Vertical Plane. This is compatible with the Zero Shift Left Shoulder Plane only because of the 3rd edition's definition of Vertical Hinging: "The Clubshaft is normally 'mounted' at an angle to the Hinge so that the Hands and Clubhead travel on parallel vertical planes." With Dual Vertical, the Clubhead Traces the Plane Line, i.e., it moves Three-Dimensionally Up, Back and In on the Inclined Plane. With this Pattern, then, the Putting Arc will not work. That's because the Pattern presumes a Vertical Plane of Motion of the Clubhead and the Putting Arc presumes an Inclined Plane of Motion. Summarizing, this Pattern requires that we use: 1. The Push Major Basic Stroke; 2. The Putt Minor Basic Stroke (motionless Right Shoulder); 3. The Left Shoulder Plane Angle (Zero #3 Accumulator); 4. Zero Shift (to or from the Elbow Plane); and 5. Vertical Only Hinging (with the Hands and Clubhead moving on parallel vertical planes). How can this be done? Geometrically, there is only one way: First, position the Right Forearm parallel to the Plane Line. Then, use Push Basic Stroke -- keeping the Hands between the Right Elbow and the Ball -- to move it precisely along the line that it is positioned. The Right Shoulder will remain motionless; Hinge Action will automatically be Vertical Only; and there will be Zero Shift from the Left Shoulder Plane. Players wishing to use Angled Hinging and the Elbow Plane need only position the Right Forearm to point at the Plane Line (and not parallel to it). Then, use Push Basic Stroke to Drive the Right Forearm along the line it is positioned, i.e., toward the Plane Line. Ergo...automatic Angled Hinging on the Elbow Plane. And with this Customized Pattern, the Putting Arc works. :) |
Length and Lie Dependent?
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Would not the 2 procedures outlined above, i.e, Right Forearm pointing at the Plane Line and parallel to the Plane Line, be dependent on the length and lie of the putter - IF the right forearm is to be inline with the shaft and the right elbow is to be in an "up and out" position per 10-3-C? |
The Putter Is A Golf Club
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That is the Basic Basic. Body Posture, distance from the Ball and Club design -- including the Putter -- must comply with that alignment. |
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Could you describe the procedure when using left hand low grip? Many thanks in advance. |
Left Hand Low Putting
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Big Jack
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Athletic Jack did in fact putt this way. Jack's left hand was rolled to a very open face condition and his right hand was turned to a very open face condition. He definitely used more of his right arm than right shoulder. A small variation from the basic arm only stroke, but all in all very close.
I don't know if it is a "controlling" type motion or not. I would say it is a very good motion for fast greens. Adding a little bending to the right wrist isn't a bad motion for slower greens. |
I like Nicklaus' stroke. (Augusta liked it too)
His posture and everything. I would say right now he is my closest model. (looks like right arm controlled too) |
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Back to the shoulder stroke. So with using the right area of the spine to control the stroke the shoulders should have more of an up and down motion to them or do i have it backwards and its an around motion similar to coiling into a shot.
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The hands don't necessarily be directly below the shoulders for the shoulders to move on a vertical plane. The only necessity for the shoulders to move vertical is to have the upper spine horizontal to the ground. The arms then could hang below, inside, or outside and the putter would straight back and through.
The feeling of coiling or turning the shoulders does not carry into putting because the plane angle is more vertical than with a longer club. So the shoulders are moving back up and in, but on a steeper plane and the feeling becomes more of rocking. But don't putt by rocking the shoudlers, just practice moving the shoulders in plane at home. |
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I recall the story of a young grasshopper like Yoda asking his master about the relative merits of vertical hinging vs angled in regard to putting. If I have my story straight I believe Homer was non committal to say the least and the grasshopper was left somewhat mystified, once again. I now find myself at the same place and with the same question, Yoda. With you now cast as Master and me playing the grasshopper, I expect the same answer but have to ask it anyways. For putting, Is angled hinging not superior to vertical in that there is now three dimensional impact and less associated clubface layback? Is vertical hinging not steering or a even a cut shot procedure? A reverse roll feeling? There may be some associated green firmness considerations. Homer putted a well worn, fast and firm rug in his garage I think. Im trying to convert to a one accumulator right arm method and sorting through this great old thread. In getting rid of any remnant of the rocking triangle theory I can find, I have turned my focus now to putting. Geez I think I read, forgot but internalized that book by Ballard in the 70's and its disasterous results are only now working there way out of my golfing system. Like a thousand year old egg gone rotten (back to my Kung Fu motif) Thank you Master. O.B. |
Mistaken Identity
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Regarding Three-Dimensional Impact, you are confusing the identities of two different Components; namely, the Inclined Plane (Clubshaft Control) and Hinge Action (Clubface Control). Each of the three Hinge Actions -- Clubface Closing Only, Closing with Layback and Layback Only -- can be (and ideally should be) executed on the Inclined Plane. In so doing, each Hinge Action is executed within a Three-Dimensional Clubhead Orbit: Downward (Attack Angle), Outward (Plane Angle) and Forward (Approach Angle) [2-C-0]. Alternatively, each of the three Hinge Actions can be executed in a Vertical Plane. This is accomplished by simply ignoring the Inclined Plane and covering the Line with the Clubhead. This removes the Outward component and produces a Two-Dimensional Motion (Downward and Forward). Obviously, this action can be accomplished only in the shortest shots. And, yes, Vertical Hinging is Steering. However, done correctly and for a purpose, it is a valuable tool for the accomplished player. This controlled Steering is executed with a 'Reverse Roll' Feel (clockwise motion of the Left Hand through Impact, i.e., "holding off") and produces higher, softer shots (with Putts, less distance). Finally, as defined by The Golfing Machine, any stroke utilizing Vertical Hinge Action is labeled a Cut Shot (2-C-2). :golfcart2: |
Thank you Yoda
I wont press you for your personal preference in regard to the inclined plane vs the vertical plane. It would seem un Homer like and I respect that. Though I personally put the arc I have been humbled by many a straight back, straight through type. To each his own. O.B. |
Vertical Hinging -- Caveat Emptor
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Each of the three Hinge Actions -- Clubface Closing Only, Closing with Layback and Layback Only -- can be (and ideally should be) executed on the Inclined Plane. In so doing, each Hinge Action is executed within a Three-Dimensional Clubhead Orbit: Downward (Attack Angle), Outward (Plane Angle) and Forward (Approach Angle) [2-C-0].Remember, Angled Hinging on the steeper Planes approaches Vertical Hinging (and on the flatter Planes approaches Horizontal Hinging). Also, it is simpler to execute (no deliberate 'Reverse Roll' manipulation). Finally, Vertical Hinging encourages the average golfer to Steer, the #1 Snare in the game. For those reasons, Homer Kelley himself much preferred Angled Hinging to Vertical Hinging, even on short shots. In his own words: "I am no fan of Vertical Hinging." Of course, Homer recognized its specific applications and encouraged their use by skilled players. Also, he felt it important that golfers learn all three Hinge Actions in order to be able to differentiate their respective Mechanics and Feels. :salut: |
I may be wrong but in your original post I thought you were maintaining that Homer's view of "orthodox" putting included a vertical plane of motion, the clubhead covering the line and vertical only hinging.
If this is correct and given his own personal preference for angled why would he suggest vertical and covering the line etc as the starting place for the development of the putting pattern? Perhaps I am confused? The great thing about this forum is that no matter how dumb the question the answer often contains some significant insight. I had for instance, never appreciated how angled hinging approaches vertical hinging as the plane angle steepens. "Mind blowing" as we used to say. |
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I have a Putting Arc (purchased about 3 months ago) and use a Shoulder Only stroke. I was surprised that you also mention using a plane board - are you referring to a 2x4, for example? If a 2x4 is used, then isn't that a "vertical arc" or a straight line? Are you suggesting that a plane board and the Putting Arc are equivalent training tools? (I don't expect so, otherwise why would you have invented the Putting Arc.) Please help. I have seen some teachers (e.g., Pelz) recommend the straight-bask-straight-through stroke. Would you agree that this would require Vertical Hinging? Thanks. Bill |
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