Yes, indeed. Surely a misprint.

Practically, at right angles is excellent. I wish I had read the book many years ago and it is right in line with all modern ball flight theory. Especially, since the golf balls have become more solid.

I think Homer is incorrect about how a perfectly straight shot is created. I think it is more logical to consider the path of the club during the impact interval as a tangent instead of a cord.

I think that the ball does not get carried down and to the right during the interval. Otherwise the implications would be inconsistent with practically at right angles. It would also suggest that a ball resting on the ground is getting rammed into the ground some amount.

I agree the collision is so violent, as has been expressed here by many, to think that the ball simply does nothing but get carried from one place to another without anything else happening but compression seems illogical.

JG

"Properly" is a very good choice of words. It means "as it should". It means that the ball leaving the Clubface at Right Angles is the "Proper" way it should leave the Clubface. It's in reference to using Hinging as a means of determining that the Ball will leave at Right Angles to the Clubface. "Properly at Right Angles".

Well - what do you know!
Maybe not a misprint after all. Is properly better than practically since they changed it in the 7. edition?

I already know that the Ball should leave at right angles unless I want otherwise and I know how to make it happen. So, it doesn't matter to me either way. But I do like the word "Proper". It is the "Proper way".........to leave at Right Angles...:)

AirAir, I think you should understand something. Hinging is the easy part. Not disturbing the Sweetspot Orbit is the Hard Thing. That's what TGM will teach you. And you'll learn that you need a "Flat Left Wrist" to learn how not to disturb the Orbit. If you can get a Flat Left Wrist through Impact, everything else will almost fall in place.

The Clubhead, with a Driver, and the Ball Played back 1 inch behind Low-Point, will travel downwards 1/50th of an inch and outward even less before ball separation. That's how critical it is. 1/50th of an inch. That's the difference between full compression or not. Even with a Putt. You need Hinge Action even with a Putt to gain compression.

It's technique that allows the perfect Orbit of the Sweetspot.

John I'm typing on my iPhone which is a pain so I won't answer in full , but to address the first things first........ Homer didn't suggest the "path " of the club was a chord to the circle. The circumference it self is the path. It's an arc .

So the clubbead prior to it's low point is going down and out given some degree of inclination to the plane of the circle.

Thank you for correcting that. I need to choose my words more carefully.

So, do you think that a straight shot at the target is created when the face points at the target at separation while the path is still moving down, out and forward as mentioned to a low point plane that points to the target?

I was recently taught that the face and path have to be pointed in the same direction at separation to hit a straight flying shot. (assuming centered contact)

Good to know. Thx.
BTW: How closely are lag and compression related?

I'd say draw if I understand you correctly given enough club head speed and enough divergence between face angle and path. But you'll notice that in the drawings of 2-c homer assumed separation to be at low point so the line of compression is pointed in the same direction as the face.....along the target line. I assume he did this to assume straight away ball flight , shot shaping being outside of the discussion at hand. Compression namely.

Another good reason to stay with the 6th!

Victim and attacker, Nice!
 

By way of an apology, John, I won't insult you if you don't insult me by using sarcastic terms and abusing dead people who created a really fine work.


So let me model a nice way to ask your question. Instead of :

Seems strange to me that only during the impact interval does the path of the club have 100% influence on the direction of the ball(down and to the right) and yet at separation it chooses to leave the face practically at right angles. How can Homer have it both ways? While on the face, only path influences ball even though the face is rotating while the ball is on it and the ball's centerlined has moved relative to both the angle of approach and arc of approach as depicted in 2-C-1#3 and this has no effect. Then all of a sudden, the ball decides to stop listening to the path and come off the face at practically right angles.

Some smart ball.

Why not: I'm trying to understand what happens to the ball during the impact interval. It seems like a contradiction to say ..... What factors am I missing? I'm sure Mr. Kelly had a point. I'm not sure if I can follow it this way. who can help?


We are writing about the legacy of a man who has passed on. He trained the man who owns and operates this site. I'm guessing that counts for something and ought to be respected.

It's sort of like me saying that any man who wears a mustache, or puts one in his avatar, or puts the Philly Phanatic or Shaniah Twain in their avatar, must've not been raised properly by his parents. Firstly, I don't believe it. Secondly, it's just damn rude to insult people because you don't understand what they taught their kids as passing for fashion. Something else, too, John. Taking backhanded shots at Mr. Blake is supposed to help all of us and you exactly how?

I'm sorry for leaving out Win McMurray, it will not happen again! :)


ICT

This forum is very cool :) where else do you get the chance to learn about this stuff

thanks all

I agree Tim, plus it looks like things have calmed down and everybody is coming to a consensus. Maybe everybody just has to look at impact in the manner that makes them comfortable, just like different components in the stroke.

"Do whatever you like, just so you know why you are doing it."

Wise words from a wise man! :salut:

:golf:

Kevin

Which wise man?

I think of impact interval as a circular motion by the club. The motion of the ball is a little more complex I guess. After all, the ball is being quite deformed and doesn't get back to normal shape before it's in the air.

I'm not sure what Homer said about a perfectly straight shot. But based on his impact drawings in ch two, i would say that a straight shot with as perfect as it gets compression would require a vertical hinge. Becaus a horisontal hinge would impose the rotation rate of the hinge itself on the ball. So even though we assume that separation occurs at low poing and club face pointing towards target it will be a small draw. But we are perhaps talking so small that it isn't even measurable.

There could be a little of both here. The part of the ball that sticks to the club face could be carried down and to the right, while the part furthest away from the line of compression move up and towards the inside of the club face. This is just a excample as I know very little about how the ball behaves during impact in detail. But there's no doubt that there is som serious redistribution of mass going on in the ball during impact. Elastic deformation. Of course, how the ball deforms and how it recovers will have an impact on the ball flight.

Pehaps we should talk about elastic deformation, energy storage and elastic recovery instead. I bet the makeup of the ball can make a difference here.

Mr Homer Kelley. :salut:

Kevin

wise words indeed Kev, i've learnt more in a fortnight on here about what i can do in a golf stroke & why i might choose to do it, than i learnt in 7 years elsewhere & it isn't like i wasn't looking before ! :-)

and the best bit is i'm sure i'm just scratching the surface so far

Oh - that wise man.

My thoughts exactly Tim, I've taught for 30 years+ without having the first clue, I felt like a bank robber, now I'm scratching the surface and just feel like a pick pocket! :) We'll get there...

BTW, I love it when folks type with an accent! :) :salut:

Kevin

gotcha

2 weeks to you :-)

nicely put :-)

i'm sure you aren't picking pockets & you are making up for the bank robbing by giving thoughts & opinions away on here for nowt :)

Seems very reasonable to me. I would have thought an angled hinge so I have to think about vertical now.


Sounds perfectly reasonable to me and makes sense as a possible outcome.



Yea, certainly a field of study I need to learn more about to have real technical discussion on the subject. Any ideas on sources of information on this area of study?

Per 2-D-0



In other words 2-C-1 #3 shows;
- nearly total compression except for backspin provided by loft
-the point of contact between clubface and ball staying together as if welded together. Made possible by a uniform rotation of the clubface (the Horizontal Hinge Action) and clubhead arc given that they are both rotating around the same center. Not so with Vertical.
-a straight shot, no divergence in face angle and line of compression.



Vertical Hinging, what Homer termed a "cut shot" is outlined in drawing 2-C-2 and if its associated loss of compression is "unintentional" as mentioned above then it must be a reference to "Steering", The Number One malfunction. Holding the clubface square to the Target Line.

Vertical Hinging though useful around the green is not good for a driver shot where you need as much compression as you can muster. It could in a way, be considered "intentional steering" when employed deliberately around the green. The geometry of compression loss can be made to work for you, when you need it and that we see on t.v. ALL THE TIME.

So I do think that Hinge Action is very real especially when you see all these guys on tour , who have probably never heard it's name, employ it.

Yes; no divergence in face angle and line of compression. But side spin is imposed on the ball by the hinge action(s). This is probably close enough to be "pracically straight" though.

Or even "properly straight" as Daryl said he appreciated?

I agree in that I certainly see a draw tendency myself but Lynn has always maintained that any Hinge Actions when properly executed will create straight away ball flight. Properly executed is the key word there. There may be face angle and plane line adjustments needed to accomplish that for Angled or Vertical. Lynn said he was going to get back to us on that one and the drawings of 2-C as well. That'll be a great post.

As an aside its interesting to me that Homer didnt actually used the term "side spin". He was ahead of his time in that he considered the curve producing spin to be what he termed "tilted backspin" 2-E or "non vertical spin" 2-D.