Mr. Yoda,

One clatification of that.

Doesn't the book say that you maintain a "stressed shaft" through the impact interval.

When I read that I envisioned the shaft being stressed at start of downsing, and didnt straighten up again till the ball is hit. The c-bening of the shaft seems counter to that, or my understanding of it.

Perhaps thats a part of the confusion?

Your funny, ya i want you to read it and learn how wrong you are, there is no lagging clubhead in the impact interval, ever.

Anyone who reads the Book should know.

Clubhead lagging what exactly? The hands? That is Homers consideration. I sense your talking clubhead lagging the mid section of the shaft.....something else entirely. ( Ya I know, new found perspective is so ...... applicable everywhere)

Wedgy, people like you make me sick. You misread a so-called scientific research paper and you have no clue what's being said. You believe you understand something, then go around to websites and tell everyone that they're wrong. Dweeb.


Yoda,
'
I really think you ought to consider a password protected section of the forum or limit newbies like Wedgy to one or two sections until they show some interest in something other than creating a pissing contest.

OUCH. Are you mad at me? What I do?

Correcting Concepts
 

The Shaft remains stressed. It is RESPONDING to Clubhead (Sweetspot) Lag Pressure Point Pressure. It is NOT creating it!

Your understanding was incorrect, but don't be too hard on yourself. the forward-bending concept is very counter-intuitive, both intellectually and in its Feel (Lag Pressure Point Pressure). Power Golf (Ben Hogan / 1948 ) made the "C" Shaft Bend at Impact obvious to all. (Although, for years, the photos were explained as an "illusion". Homer Kelley explained to me in January 1982 exactly what was going on.)

The Clubshaft manufacturers would have us believe that all this "kick" stuff is the product of their wonderful product. The truth is that the Clubshaft responds exactly today as it did 100 years ago. The materials are sturdier and more consistent, but the response to Centrifugal Reaction is the same.

:salut:

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

So the shaft remains stressed despite the fact it bends forward, so long as the clubhead lags the hands? Is that correct? I dunno. I just feel it my finger.....and direct it.

Sweetspot Lag Creates Clubshaft Stress . . . In Several Directions
 

There obviously can be exceptions, but in the sense I know you mean it, the answer is yes.

But more correctly, it is the Sweetspot that lags, not Clubhead as a whole. The Sweetspot can be well up the Clubface, particularly in the deeper-faced Short Irons, and that Lag supercedes the overall Clubhead.

:salut:

This is what Sasho James MacKenzie says is the purpose of Clubshaft Flex and this is what he claims happens at impact whenever a club is swung.

First you started the pissing contest and second you have continually called me names and third you have provided nothing to support your assertion of a lagging clubhead through the impact interval, why?, because it doesn't happen.

The only thing we need protection from is you and your boneheaded assertions. You should take over Jeff M's sub-forum and rename it Daryl's section where i'm right even when i'm wrong...lol. Who's really the dweeb.

Now you got it, finally, your not that stupid after all.

No, but you are.

Hey OB and Yoda, is this what your club looks like when either of you swing a club, because it isn't what mine looks like.....

That's not possible as i'm the one that taught you what was right and pointed out how wrong you were. That would make me smarter than you.

UNfortunately your wrong again as your club does look somewhat like that and the more flexible the shaft the more lead deflection.

Thanks Yoda and break a leg tomorrow.

Yoda just posted that this happens and that Ben Hogan had it figured out in "Power Golf". It's old news. Here's the illustration:

good guys team, bad guys talk
 

If you two keep it up Im calling your parents :laughing9 :laughing9 :laughing9

more info below.


http://www.tutelman.com/golf/shafts/ShaftLab.php?ref=

You got their number? Can i get it?.:laughing9 :laughing9

It's pretty amazing that Hogan had that figured out back in 1948. That Power Golf illustration is by far the first reference I've ever seen to this shaft deflection phenomenon.

Where's the Bear these days? He had some interesting shaft bend profiles from the old TT Shaftlab. Really interesting actually from a TGM perspective. Bend the Aft or bend the top etc.

What's especially interesting is that Mackenzie reports that for every centimeter of forward deflection the shaft also rotates the face closed 0.7 degrees. As if we didnt have enough to be concerned about already. :)

Lucky Stiffs
 

Which is why Ben Hogan preferred that his shaft flex be "somewhere between a fence post and a telephone pole".

Larry Nelson played Hogan clubs throughout his PGA TOUR career. The shafts were Apex 5s.

Tipped.

:shock:

These guys didn't want anything influencing that ClubFACE through Impact except their Flat Left Wrist.

Karsten Solheim at Ping was of the same mind. He offered one shaft flex . . .

Stiff.

Kinda reminds you of Henry Ford and his Model T: "You can have any color you want, as long as its black."

:laughing9

:salut:

Get some rest young man!
 

Relax and enjoy yourself this week. Make a great presentation or many!


ICT

For a complete explanation, visit: http://www.appliedcolorscience.com/r...ge_sensors.htm



What does all this mean?

1.) Image sensors with rolling shutter image capture cannot capture an entire image frame instantaneously.

2.) When using a rolling shutter-based image sensor, pay attention to the DIRECTION of the shutter - especially if you want to capture realistic motion. Turn the Camera Upside-down

D I believe the second image is not "rolling shutter corrected" but rather just the camera turned upside down and showing the illusionary effect of the rolling shutter in the opposite direction. Neither photo is accurate.

What does this mean:

-If its blurry dont trust the bend you see...at all.
-you need a faster camera.

Personally, I believe the FEEL of what YODA and HOMER are teaching us in trying to maintain the lag is very real. What MacKenzies photos show as real world may be true, I have no idea, but doesn't do a thing for my swing or my teaching. Trying to maintain the lag helps in the real world, and I don't believe for one second that the scientists are abandoning that feel. They just renamed it torque. I could be wrong, I'm not that bright, but I knows what works for me and my students.

Kevin

Oh, but you're quick to believe the illusion in the first capture. And just as confident pointing out potential flaws in the second.

This is what happens when everyone tries to be a pioneer and make a name for themselves.

"There is nothing new under the sun".

And in this case, since Hogan wrote his power golf book.

Speaking of YODA, he should be done with his presentation. I hope those boneheads behaved themselves during his discussion!

Kevin

The rolling shutter cameras will exaggerate the deflection on film. It's also true that turning the camera upside down will only serve to reverse the direction of the distortion in the opposite direction. However, the scientists and physicists that are observing and measuring this are not relying upon these cameras to make their calculations. Every research dept. of every shaft and club manufacturer confirms this deflection to be happening, as well as many independent researchers such as MacKenzie. The physics of this is pretty fascinating IMO, and there is substantial evidence that the clubhead, for all intents and purposes, is basically "detached" from the shaft throughout the impact interval and is essentially acting as a free moving object independently of the shaft. Pretty amazing how we can even hit straight shots with our various clubs and shafts, all behaving differently than each other. Check out this video at 33 seconds, and you can see how the rolling shutter creates an illusion in Tiger's swing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkZdlYg9UuY

What makes you say that? I think I was pretty clear that neither image should be trusted. See my posts #100 and 149.

This is a point and shoot digital camera thing, not talking about Hogan or proper high speed digital images. The sensor scans top down or bottom up.....it doenst scan quick enough and the curve in the shaft is not an accurate representation of whats actually happening. In bottom up mode with the camera turned upside down it scans the head of the club but then as it moves up it scans the shaft at a slightly later point in time , thereby showing forward bend. Vice versa for top down.....they're both highly suspect. If you see blur in the shaft dont try to read it, it could be an illusion.

Im not a camera nut or anything just stuff Ive read. And for those who have a Casio, ever seen the shaft bend when in burst mode? Its a different animal than in high speed video, crazy clear and really weird. Not sure which is more accurate but the general rule about trusting things that are sharper would mean that the shaft does all sorts of crazy things.

Somebody once said the shaft was like a snake. Not sure who...oh ya Homer Kelley.

Im thinking this photo is accurate and its interesting given that he's not making contact with terra firma. Just the collision with the ball bending the shaft back a tad......giving it a slight two way bend.

I haven't seen "shaft lean" create this kind of controversey since my college days.:laughing1

Well that illustration of Hogan in power golf is just a "tad" exaggerated...lol. and you'd have to ask how they got the idea the shaft deflected that much that way that far before impact the shaft at that moment would be in a lag position not a lead position, O.B. is correct about the camera's.


Hogan if he went by the camera's of the day and thought the shaft looked like the illustration in power golf he would be sadly mistaken, it doesn't.

Its only an illustration! But it does confirm knowledge of the forward bending of the shaft prior to impact. Thus, it is hardly a newly discovered concept.

It's new to Daryl. They came to the wrong conclusion due to the camera's, the shaft is not in that position at that time in the d.s.

Don't!
 

Don't mention "shaft lean" and college in the same sentence! Do you know how ugly some of those girls from IA and Evanston, IL were? Thank goodness I had a girlfriend from England, then Karen from MN, then a girl named Toovah from Sweden in Firenze, then Rita in Germany, then Cathy from MN then...I don't want to talk about it, it's too painful!


:laughing9 :laughing9 :laughing9


....Sharon from Kansas...Meagan from ... when I called her for the college fundraising drive several years later, she said "Look you SOB, Im a "high ranking official"s wife, now, and if you ever bring up what we did, I'll have you killed!"

OOPS! :) Shaft lean is a touchy subject! (Sometimes, I just crack myself up! Do I need to see a doctor about that?)


ICT