O.B.

The Picture IS the Golfing Machine.

I'm interested and out of my depth, OB.
 

And it is OK for me. I'm not wanting to be annoying. I do want to be supportive so I chime in. But lots of stuff clicks in on its own schedule for me. I get a few things but not 10% of what my more technical peeps here, get. My encouragement is that when I do learn something, I'm great at showing others how to do it.

So....if you'd like me to just communicate on a technical level, I will do that. Maybe we should designate threads as "Book Only" threads? I'd go along with that. :)


Pat

Loves me my Mac!
 

LOVE Handbrake!:salut:

Oh yeah. It helped me get ALL my videos from YODA onto my iPhone!

Kevin

Sheesh, I just got it!
 

Well, I can be pretty thick sometimes, ya think? :crybaby:

DUHHHHH.



I (don't always) C T (things clearly)

Ben Hogan At Low Point
 

This one gets my vote, too.

"Book literalists" -- a.k.a. "junk scientists" -- would call Ben's alignments the perfection of Sketch 2-K #2 (Angular Momentum). Also, the Champion's Demonstration of the Ideal Vector Alignments of Sketch 2-C-1 #3. That is:

The Ideal Application showing Impact Geometry per 2-G and Clubhead Path Geometry per 2-N.

-- Homer Kelley, The Golfing Machine

But then . . .

What do they know?

:laughing9

Ben Doyle told me that Hogan's brother, Royal, had a swing just like him.

Royal was a outstanding amatuer. Bet he had good geometric impact also.

I also never realized Hogan's dad shot himself in the chest with a shotgun, when Ben was a child. Perhaps thats where he developed that steely perseverance.

useless Tidbits of info brought to you by chipingguru.

http://royalhoganfoundation.org/

Some really nice family photos and stories can be found here. Below is a photo of Royal , Ben's older brother at Finish. Royal, Ben and Princess with their Dad Chester and Chester's blacksmith shop.

Mystery Boy . . . and Man
 

Thanks for this, O.B.

:salut:

We have a photo on our wall with a father walking (in blue-collar clothing and a caddie hat) and being followed by his two young boys, the smallest carrying a little golf bag. The two following father Chester were big brother Royal and little brother Ben. Somebody got that photo?

I point to the little one in the photo and ask new students "Do you know who this is?" No one yet has had a clue.

Ben Hogan.

Then and now . . .

An enigma.

:salut:

Id love to see that photo Lynn.

To think that nobody not even his best friends knew of the burden he carried with him for his whole life. It no doubt coloured him and his relationships with others. That itself might have been harder to overcome than the car crash.

What a fighter.


PS I wonder if Chester could almost touch his left forearm with his left thumb?

a picture's worth a thousand words........and shots!
 

This pic of Lynn is in my humble (yet this time accurate) opinion :) THE best illustration.........dare i say it, of ALL TIME.....DA DA DUM DUM

centered head, weight shift, hip turn, straight left/flat left, bent right/bent right, and most importantly a "stressed" shaft via lag pressure...not just a lagging clubhead, not just "shaft lean", but a shaft that's gettin BEAT UP!!!
(To be fair I've only pulled that location off with a U.S. Kids 5-6 year old 9 iron; I can show that thing who's boss at the bottom) :laughing9 :laughing9 :laughing9 :laughing9...but a wonderful illustration of the "feeling"

If the benchmark is that the illustration also be correct wouldn't that disqualify your pic. also as it doesn't include a real event of impact as no clubshaft will be in that position in a real swing at impact. They actually deflect the exact opposite way at that moment as the clubhead goes to a lead position from a lag position.

sasho mackenzie says:

"The final phase of shaft deflection was the most
important since it explained clubhead orientation at impact.
Over the final few hundredths of a second of the downswing,
the clubhead rapidly moved from its maximum
lagging position into its maximum leading position at
impact. The lead deflections at impact for the normal
optimized simulation were approximately 6.25 cm in
magnitude. The complete removal of radial force during
the downswing only reduced lead deflection to 4.72 cm
(Fig. 8; Table 1). Therefore, when acting in isolation, the
tangential forces that occur during the late phase (after
0.15 s) of the downswing were a major contributor to the
lead deflection at impact. The complete isolation of radial
force demonstrated that, while acting alone, radial force
only resulted in 1.22 cm of lead deflection at impact
(Fig. 9; Table 1)."

the full paper can be found at his website.
UofS Theses: Understanding the role of shaft stiffness in the golf swing

Photo Points
 

Point taken, wedgy, but I stand by the point of the photo: the golfer should keep the ball and the head behind the hands.

Also, the stressed shafts could be taken to represent Clubhead Lag Pressure Point Pressure as felt in the #3 Pressure Point (right index finger). That is the way it feels.

Finally, my personal alignments are correct.


:salut:

Yes i can understand that it is a good visual and feel to shoot for regardless if it( the shaft lag position at impact) happens or not. Never questioned your personal alignments as i'm more than sure they are correct for you.:)

very interesting photo lynn.hands and what would be the clubhead are correct,but the bend of the shaft is the other way.it's hard to imagine the shaft looking like a c but it does.makes you wander even more how we can even hit the little ball first:golf:

"C" señor
 

Some fine points that I've learned to encourage and maintain Clubhead Lag through the Impact Interval. CL has almost nothing to do with speed. Acceleration only needs to apply a greater force than the strength of the shaft and the weight of Clubhead inertia. And, Stiff shafts bend easily. Stiffer is better. Stiff shafts stay with you.

1. Don't create more Lag than you're prepared to Sustain (need for the length of shot)
2. The Right Forearm must be Driven through Release and Impact
3. The Right Forearm Flying Wedge must remain Intact. The Right Forearm Flying Wedge Alignment is what brings Clubhead Lag into Impact. Without the Alignment, no amount of Thrust will help. Clubhead Lag is "Keyed into" the Right Arm Flying Wedge Alignment at "Startdown".
4. The Right Elbow must Straighten as the RFFW approaches the Angle of Approach for Impact. It's easy to lose Clubhead Lag when the Hands Slow. If you can't maintain Hand Acceleration, then use a smaller Pulley. That's what it's there for.
5. The #3 Pressure Point is indispensable from start to finish. "Trace and Drag".

If you can learn to sustain Tip Bend on a fishing pole, then you can learn to sustain Clubhead Lag with a Golf Club.

If you can learn to sustain Tip Bend on a fishing pole, then you can learn to sustain Clubhead Lag with a Golf Club.[/quote]

Correct you are D. Unfortunately I am such a dummy it took me about 2 years to figure it out. And that was after about 50 years of wandering in the desert not knowing where to look for the horizon.
But now my addiction is compression. Once you find it and feel it, there is nothing like it. Those photos you posted not only look good, they feel good.
Thanks for all the illustrations and concepts you post. They are most helpful.

Do you have any pics at impact with the same look of lag? Some of that "look" is deceptive because of distortion, also there is in Hogan's power golf a pic that has the clubhead in the exact opposite position of leading before impact, do you think that's accurate?

The shaft leans have to be taken with a grain of salt, and that aplies to the dramtic leans/bends in either direction. Hard to get accurate depictions at that speed like a race cars tires looking out of round. Lots of delusions in this area.

What is without dispute, IMO is the principal of lag leading into the impact interval. Never been anyone worth a flat dang that didn't do that.

Mr. Kelley's mothod of achieving it may not be the only way, but is surely an effective one. But one better have it one way or another or never realize even close to full potential.

Good point Chipingguru.

Those photos were taken with a film camera back in the day so Im not sure about the implications but with some of todays digital cameras with rolling shutters there is a distinct illusion. If on video mode some of your swings show a weird shaft bend , turn your camera upside down and film another swing to see if the shaft bends dramatically in the opposite direction. If it does your camera's rolling shutter image sensor is too slow for the shaft movement. It normally scans top down so turning it upside down will have it scanning bottom up and reverse the illusion.

If the image is super sharp , like a casio on burst mode its an accurate depiction. The shaft does bend, like a snake actually. Two ways , given toe down but I have photos that suggest three ways even after contact with the ground.

Thanks Daryl!

So I'm Tracing, Drag Loading the shaft, then firing the forearm vigorously as I get to the ball to go through it, correct, or are you saying to maintain the constant force?

My most success has been slinging the Power Package down with firm wedges through the sharp Pivot returning to Impact Fix. I think you are speaking about the Pivot moving the shoulder down plane and then extending the the forearm or unbending the elbow.

It will be hard to fire the Pivot and then s-lowly extend the forearm after it rides down.

Thank goodness we have a little more winter for practice! ; >

ICT

You cannot maintain clubhead lag through the impact interval as stated by Daryl, no matter how hard you try, it ain't happening.

That's your position? "It ain't happening". :laughing9 :laughing9

Why do you insist that everyone must "Throw-Away" the Clubhead a few inches before Impact? Why not 12 inches or 16 inches? If you know how to do this, then why not 6" past impact?

Please explain wedgy....

I never said you throw it away,it's the way the shaft behaves that stops you from having a lagging clubhead through the impact interval. Pictures of wildly bending shafts are from camera's not capable of capturing what really happens.

There is science to support this and i did post one up, S.Mackenzie, there's more info on this if you search for it. I never said it isn't worth trying just the opposite but it ain't going to happen the way you described it.

Some see a kicking shaft with the head racing ahead, some see the same photo and determine it to be a lagging shaft.

Is it one or the other or both? I dunno .

You're so full of it, you're not worth a second more of my time.

The photo's have been explained the camera's that were used are not capable of capturing what is happening without distorting what is happening with the shaft that affects the clubhead at the impact interval.

All the data from places like titleist and other's show the shaft deflecting the clubhead in a leading position at the impact interval no question about it. You think shaft manufacturers know about this in their process of developing their products, ya think?

That's a surprising comment. Hey, when the fact's from many different scientific studies are against your assertion of a lagging clubhead at the impact interval either produce data to refute them or just do what you did go into denial.

If you can produce just one ligit study or photo at the impact interval of a lagging clubhead with the shaft in a reverse c position i will admit your correct. Good luck.


From S.Mackenzie


The purpose of this thesis was to determine how shaft stiffness affects clubhead speed and how it alters clubhead orientation at impact. For the first time, a 3D, six-segment forward dynamics model of a golfer and club was developed and optimized to answer these questions. A range of shaft stiffness levels from flexible to stiff were evaluated at three levels of swing speed (38, 45 and 53 m/s). At any level of swing speed, the difference in clubhead speed did not exceed 0.1 m/s across levels of shaft stiffness. Therefore, it was concluded that customizing the stiffness of a golf club shaft to perfectly suit a particular swing will not increase clubhead speed sufficiently to have any meaningful effect on performance. The magnitude of lead deflection at impact increased as shaft stiffness decreased. The magnitude of lead deflection at impact also increased as swing speed increased. For an optimized swing that generated a clubhead speed of 45 m/s, with a shaft of regular stiffness, lead deflection of the shaft at impact was 6.25 cm. The same simulation resulted in a toe-down shaft deflection of 2.27 cm at impact. Using the model, it was estimated that for each centimeter of lead deflection of the shaft, dynamic loft increased by approximately 0.8 degrees. Toe-down shaft deflection had relatively no influence on dynamic loft. For every centimeter increase in lead deflection of the shaft, dynamic closing of the clubface increased by approximately 0.7 degrees. For every centimeter increase in toe-down shaft deflection, dynamic closing of the clubface decreased by approximately 0.5 degrees. The results from this thesis indicate that improvements in driving distance brought about by altering shaft stiffness are the result of altered clubhead orientation at impact and not increased clubhead speed.

There's no doubt that photos of blurry shafts being madly bent are partly due to the cameras inability to keep up.........there's also no doubt that the clubhead will get "slung" back to an inline condition or beyond..... at SOME point through the strike.

However, go watch Boo in swingvision on youtube.......immediately after separation I don't think anyone could dispute that the clubhead is lagging the shaft.

IMHO

Btw, I understand that the ground is providing the resistance to make this possible, and would agree with wedgy that you're not gonna pull that position of the shaft off with a driver......:)

Caused by the clubhead hitting the ground, no surprise. That is not the same as what Daryl said, i guess the shaft is going to be ahead of the clubhead in that instance it has no choice.

Yesterday's News
 

Wedgy,

I have no problem with your prior post, and I know your quote above was directed at Daryl, not me. That said . . .

Please don't think you have delivered any sort of 'revelation' in this thread. I don't know how old you are, but I was teaching the scientific "C" Shaft bend you have correctly identified to anybody who would listen for more than thirty years. My guess is that it was before you were born.

You're making a big deal of this point -- and it is a big deal -- but, trust me, it really is a very old deal. It ain't some sort of 'new science' junk.

What's happening here is that the the Sweet Spot is maintaining its straight line and in-line relationship with the #3 Pressure Point (first joint of the right hand index finger). The inertia of the Clubshaft prevents it from keeping up, so it bends forward. However, the stress in the #3 Pressure Point (that senses the Clubshaft stress) remains the same at Impact as it was in Release, regardless of the Clubshaft deflection.



Like I said . . .

Old news . . .

By at least 30 years.

New subject, please, unless you have something to add to this one.

:salut:

You misinterpret my post. I see the shaft bending, the head in front of the mid section of the shaft too. Read it again my lbg friend.

P.S. Yoda you've been "reading my mail" as they say .....thats the three way bend I was referring to if you include toe down, but you knew that, again.

Is there a misunderstanding?

Wedgy Claims: that Clubhead Lag is an "Urban Legend", a "Myth", an "Illusion" and impossible to create. He further claims that all of the golf club "Shaft manufacturers" have a built-in "Fairy" that causes the club shaft to bend in a "C" shape before impact. :laughing9

Strawman argument. Total misrepresentation of what i said. Never let the facts get in the way of a good story, right Daryl.

Not at all Wedgy. You want me to read a 220 document which supposedly supports your point of view because you have NOOO clue what you're talking about. You're an idiot.

Sweetspot Lag Is NOT Clubsshaft Lag!
 

The Clubhead Lag is Sweetspot Lag. That is, the Sweetspot maintaining its in-line relationship with the #3 Pressure Point.

Clubhead Lag is NOT Clubshaft Lag! As usual, people are putting words in Homer Kelley's mouth. HE understood this fact. Apparently, some still don't.

This is not difficult, people. It's old news and well known. The Clubshaft bends forward into Impact. There is still Clubhead (Sweetspot) Lag (of the #3 Pressure Point and its Lag Pressure Point Pressure).

Let's play nice now, okay?

:salut:

How the heck can Tom Watson's swing get better looking every year? Did the man find a time machine?

Well I keep learning things. Even this discussion was good. Thanks to all.

Forward shaft bend , lagging clubhead......who knew?