Sorry I wasn't able to post my reply yesterday- I'll just post it here..

The Hands control the pivot. They are not the pivot. The Hands train and design the pivot's movement. The hands are the boss, the pivot is the laborer. The pivot's pivot gear train begins from the bottom up. Even TT moves his hips first- go check the front viewo pf his swing in chap 9. Small bump that continues to rotate just before the Hands drop.

This does not mean the pivot controls the Hands? NO. Never does a trained “by the Hands Pivot” ever dominate the Hands Delivery path to the ball. A pivot controlled Hands motion would always dominate and control the lines for the Hands.

Sorry I wasn't able to post my reply yesterday- I hope sometime today.

BUT... The Hands control the pivot. They are not the pivot. The Hands train and design the pivot movement. The hands are the boss, the pivot is the laborer

This does not mean the pivot controls the Hands? NO. Never does a trained “by the Hands Pivot” ever dominate the Hands Delivery path to the ball. A pivot controlled Hands motion would always dominate and control the lines for the Hands.

Understand Hula Hula- maybe one of the top original concepts Mr Kelley developed in his research- and you will see the relationship better between a Hand controlled Pivot and its Pivot components. The Hips, independent from the shoulders, creates a path for the hands. Ever so important for a Hitter to have an avenue and important for a CF gyro cranking swinger to free wheel the Master Accumulator. These actions are not pivot control. With Hula Hula, the Hands have complete guidance to the low point. How can that be pivot control?

Strip away everything a student of Homer Kelley’s book has learned and the last thing you will find- the first thing ever told to the student is Hands Control the Pivot. Even before The Imperatives. It is taught at the earliest introduce to TGM because the physics of a stroke should never control or dominate the geometric alignments. A student must understand this idea right from the start. The ‘reach’ is a nice way to introduce the concept the way elementary students learn about History. Details change the more you study.


Can you let the Hands drop without any hip movement? If that is the way you trained your pivot but I think the hands would be at the mercy of the rotation more so then with Hula Hula- the great highway builder. And not every stroke is a full swing.

Homer says Train the Pivot.
What’s the pivot for?
To Delivery the Hands to Impact.
The Hands train the pivot.
My Hands have trained the pivot (many times)

I have gotten little support discussing Hula Hula and the Training of the Pivot. Mike O and I have discussed this in another thread. I have reviewed all Yoda materials, his old posts, workshop notes and videos and for the life of me can see how Lynn taught me wrong.


Reach or Train, Hula Hula or Drop, Sweep or Snap, Hit or Swing. You got the options.

One great concept in TGM is called "Facts and Illusions".....in the 7th edition you can find that concept on page XII second paragraph.....with this commentary, I hope all can see why Homer put the "Facts and Illusions" concept in the book. It's very real....

In the above comments you're witnessing someone interpreting the golf swing based on Illusion....not fact. Tomasello did not move his hips first on the downswing. That is a frickin Illusion pure and simple. Interesting to find someone in this state. But there it is....

Tomasello's hips react to the action of the Magic of the Right Forearm technique in the last paragraph of 7-3.

In his teaching, Tommy Tomasello used both Standard hip action and delayed (for both procedures he used the right forearm to start the downswing). Both approaches incorporated the use of the right forearm even with standard hip action to keep the HANDS on the straight line delivery path or the hands would have moved to an angled path. Yeeeeeeeee Hawwwwwwwwwww

And that's the truth (just the facts from personally studying with Tomasello)..No Illusion.

DG

First that someone is me, right, dkbg?

And what kind of state am I in?

This post had little or nothing to do with TT. I just mention that he even moves his hips at the start of the downswing and that it is still a Hands Controlled pivot. The post was about the idea of a Hands controlled pivot and some of its misconceptions.

Now, Chief, if TT taught Delayed Hip Action, his hips would lead the downswing. The hips trail the shoulders on the backswing and LEAD on the downswing. You do understand that, do you, HeYaw? Guess not.

Homer said never listen to what they say or write- watch what they do.

Facts and Illusions
 

Facts and Illusions ya got to love it...............

DG

Yes- Love them.

Here are two quotes concerning the videos tapes from another Tom Tomasello student who by his account, studied with him longer than anyone else on this forum:

“The true "illusions" that I see are reflected in Tom's "feels" versus what is actually happening.

His narrative and his full speed motion are completely at odds with each other.”


But.... that said. I Totally agree with the next quote from the same former student and now well respect instructor:

What he does leave us with, is a wonderful swinging motion completely subservient to centrifugal force. The full lever extension, sequenced release, left wrist going from cocked, to level, to uncocked, and the right wrist going from level to uncocked are textbook. The Law of the Flail, rhythm, definition of keeping the club on plane, the Flying Wedges, the three imperatives are ALL here! Pay heed all of you swingers! Thanks Tom for all of your enthusiasm, devotion, and your wonderfully infectious manner.

My problem is with YOU and your inability to answer a question that may have you think outside the sphere of TT’s tapes and magazine interview. You are condescending in your remarks to "them" who dare to question a point. "Truth" never needs to steer clear of a question or hide behind a bozo. Tom Tomesallo will always be a pioneer in the instruction of TGM. You on the other hand….

If Tommy's swing is so good (as you say above), why would I or anyone have to think outside the sphere of TT's tapes and magazine interview (it's all there and in the book). I am through with being a reseacher....as Homer said the reseach is complete (with the 7th edition). I agree. I'm sorry you're still searching.

I believe the Tomasello student your referencing is one who possibly didn't get it (based on previous posts). It's taken me years to get it. Why am I getting it....because it's spelled out in the BOOK CLEARLY. I used my audio lesson cassettes of Tomasello to guide me. Did the other former Tomasello student put his lessons on tape???


Next question.....why are you the only one attacking TOMMY"S instruction. The BS about having a problem with me is hilarious. See, when you don't have a REAL technicial arguement you must resort to personal attacks.


Tommy's instruction does not come from just Tom Tomasello there are other instructors who teach this way. Sorry, if you think Tomasello is unique. Just remember the comment Tomasello made about Tommy Armour for starters. Checkout the Chapter video series.

From the first hour of Homer's first Master class, Homer even says (Enthusiastically) you can swing with the right arm. He even went out of his way to say it.

Enough of this waste of time nonsense......time to hit the golf course.

In it's basic form, TGM definitely has a very regimented approach (see chapter 12 executed per 7-3, 2-N-0, and 2-N-1 of the 7th edition). But it can be customized per one's flexiblity, skill and knowledge. Customization is best done through an Authorized Golf Instructor of the System.



Happy Memorial Day Everyone,


DG

Questions are asked. Answers are not given. Kelley said ask questions. Questions lead to growth.

You present absolutes. You said that you will find no answers to G.O.L.F. in Orlando with Yoda.
Lynn fields questions.
I have watched the videos a dozen times- at least, several of them many more times. Was I to become mesmerized? It did make me want to know more.

Right arm swing, 3 barrel hit- I don't care. TT is a pioneer and was a great TGM instructor few will ever approach.
But many had questions and you always saw that as an attack.

Like I said earlier, I'm not getting into a debate. Don't need to. You're off the mark regarding Lynn in Orlando.

The shots with the driver today were awesome (drives in the 300 yard range and Straight, just like the interview says).....totally using the swinging motion from Tommy's 1991 Golf Illustrated interview which can be found in 7-3. When I studied with Tomasello in person, he called it learning the MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM. It does produce Magic...

Don't know if I would call Tomasello a pioneer (some called him the Billy Graham of TGM)...the swinging procedure he taught can be found in John Jacobs 1972 text "Practical Golf"....Tommy also made the comment during my three day school....to paraphrase Tommy "in the OLD days we use to call it "backing it out" (uncocking the right forearm with a quiet body).....in reference to the uncocking of the right elbow from the top....a la "The Magic of the Right Forearm"....it wouldn't surprise me if Tomasello turned Homer onto Jacobs book. It's interesting that the Magic of the Right Forearm concept turned up after Homer started working with Tomasello. After about three years of intense study, I'm starting to understand why the technique was coined that name.

Tommy made it very clear how to use the right arm in swinging per the Magic of the Right Forearm. If you don't believe me....for starters, reference 6-B-2-0 where Homer says ....Centrifugal Force, Accumulator #1, THE MUSCLES OF BOTH FOREARMS, any---or all---are available to actuate this Assembly.


Today, I realized, I have come full circle....I'm back to the golf article that got me started in TGM. The answer was there the whole time....what an interesting revelation.

DG

DG....Are you an AI?

Gotta love the passion for the swing, errr, swings. :thumleft:

[quote=6bmike;41998]
Now, Chief, if TT taught Delayed Hip Action, his hips would lead the downswing. The hips trail the shoulders on the backswing and LEAD on the downswing.

[quote]

Wouldn't it be the case that TT could have taught Delayed Hip Action, AND still maintained that the action of the right forearm initiates the downswing (hip slide a response to the right forearm)? Per 7-15, hip action only deals with leading and pulling the shoulders back and down. This doesn't speak to the overall initiation of the downswing - just the hip shoulder relationship.

The hip slide certainly could lead the downswing over the hands/right forearm, but aren't you giving up precision? How do you know how much slide is enough? With all out concentration on the hands' relationship to the desired plane line (and letting the body respond), there is precision. (slide or bump the amount needed to maintain the correct hand/forearm relationship to the plane line).

[quote=SECGolf;42074][quote=6bmike;41998]
Now, Chief, if TT taught Delayed Hip Action, his hips would lead the downswing. The hips trail the shoulders on the backswing and LEAD on the downswing.

Good questions- Review the tapes and magazine article. Best to watch the stroke performed in real time ( a very nice stroke) and not the ones in slow motion demostration. Two different things. Illustion's I'm told.

A delayed Hip Action Leads the Downstroke. It doesn't pause then lead. TT used Standard Hip Turn and Action. It sounds more like what you wrote and Tom explains, Circle Hand Path Delivery using the Turning Hip to carry the Right Elbow around to release.
_________
more points:

Hula Hula sets up the Hands, clears the hips and allows for a Hand over pivot delivery of the club to the ball. This is Precision. Why? Because anytime you allow the hips to move the shoulders in either direction you are in Pivot control Hands. Hula Hula is an independent movement of the Hip Turn with a coordinated shoulder motion. Now the Arms, and Flying Wedges do not need the Hips to move them. They have a clear path to impact once the Hips clear out of the way. A must for Hitters. Swingers can now Drag Load with Instant Acceleration to throw ouit the club. "Clear a Lane and they will come."

Homer wrote... "Execution of a Preselected Pivot....completely uncompromised by Arm and Club Motion...shifting the weight...to maintain balance, a motionless head and any required tilt of the torso. All motion is in a preselcted sequence and spacing." Sounds like a Pivot that is trained to set up my Hands to the ball. No Roundhouse- On Plane. Free to Swing the Hands and Monitor 1-L A/B/C - Incline Plane- the shaft, Hand Pressure Points- the clubhead and Flat Left Wrist -Clubface control.

Further down in 1-L: "and Mastery of the Pivot (Zone #1) is so esstential for good golf. see 10-19-0" Whats 10-19-0? Lag Loading- Clubhead FEEL.

All this from Hula Hula. Train A pivot. Free your Hands and Swing Them.

[quote=SECGolf;42074][quote=6bmike;41998]
Now, Chief, if TT taught Delayed Hip Action, his hips would lead the downswing. The hips trail the shoulders on the backswing and LEAD on the downswing.

SECGolf,

Well said....thanks. Standard Hip action and Delayed hip action have the same downstroke hip to shoulder relationship.

Even when Tomasello taught with standard hip action it wasn't pure standard hip action. Halfway through the backswing he instructed the student to use the right forearm to keep the hands on the straight line delivery path, if not, pure standard hip action puts the hands on a top arc and angled line for swinging.

Delayed Hip Action sequence - Right Forearm, Right Hip/Right Forearm, Left Hip
Standard Hip Action Sequence - Right Hip, Right Forearm/Right Forearm, Left Hip

I believe one reason Tommy used standard hip action or at least started the backstroke with the hips was for students who whipped the club behind them with their arms on the backswing (Off-plane).

The motion described in the Tomasello 1991 GI interview is delayed hip action executed per the Magic of the Right Forearm. Pure and Simple.


DG

I have no doubt that what DG learned from TT is what DG posts here. Many of TT's other students got different instruction at different times. This happens with many instructors. I cannot comment on TT other then to, like DG, refer you back to the Tapes and Interview. I do say watch the real swing and not the slo-mo. From DG’s description of Delayed Hip Action, TT or DG takes the all important hips lead on the downswing out, which makes it STANDARD on the DS. I have no problem with it- it just ain’t delayed Hip Action no matter how you paint it.

Again- This discussion is like the movie “Ground Hog Day.” Same stuff posted in 2005, etc- just different people wondering the same points to the same DG. It is hard to believe that in all the years TT taught, the three days with DG would be the only authentic ones.

I cannot answer TT questions- watch the tapes and read the interview. The standard magic answer.

Tom Tomasello, like Ben Doyle and other early friends of Homer Kelley are very important to all tgmers. Homer could not have survive without them. We have much to be thankful for.

Hula Hula
 

Hula Hula- makes Hands control Pivot with a Centered Head work. And that is a Hip Action BEFORE any Hand action- magically or not.

Three points from Lynn Blake posted a few years back: (Edited from longer posts and emphasis is mine)

1- Homer Kelley did indeed prefer the Delayed Hip Turn. Despite the popularity of the Standard Action for centuries, he saw "absolutely no reason" for the Hips to lead the Shoulders in the Backstroke.
With Delayed Hip Action, the Shoulders lead the Hips on the Backstroke and the Hips lead the Shoulders on the Downstroke.
2- Both Hitter and Swinger use Pivot Lag (Hips lead Shoulders in the Downstroke) to Load the Power Package (via the On Plane Right Shoulder Turn Thrust against Pressure Point #4). The only difference between the two is what is being Loaded and how.
3- Both Hitters and Swingers properly utilize the Pivot to overcome the Clubhead Inertia during the Start Down.

In other words, the Body Pulls the Arms and Club into the Downstroke, until- pending- in anticipation- waiting for- the Lag to load and the right shoulder to reach maximum speed, a swingers gyro or a Hitter’s muscular thrust.

From Homer to Yoda to Me. Delayed Hip Action via Hula Hula, loading Lag and delivery by highly educated Flying Wedges.

This is Wrong?

Obviously this could go on and on. I appreciate the discussion. I have trouble with ( or at least I question in the context of a questioning of ideas presented by Tomasello):

" if TT taught Delayed Hip Action, his hips would lead the downswing."
This seems to automatically associate DHA with hips leading the downswing. I don't have my book with me. But I'm pretty sure 7-15 does not say "hips lead the downswing", it says "hips lead the shoulders" (precise definition of hip action). Important distiction for me.
This definitely leaves the door open for something else to lead the downswing.
What is the wording in 10-19 - C? I'll check later.

"Hula Hula sets up the Hands, clears the hips and allows for a Hand over pivot delivery of the club to the ball."

Hula Hula is a subset of the pivot. It is the pivot (or part of). Can you say, " 'Part of the pivot (or action of the pivot) sets up the hands, clears the hips, and allows for a hand over pivot delivery of the club to the ball' " This sounds like pivot controlled hands.

"Hula Hula- makes Hands control Pivot with a Centered Head work. And that is a Hip Action BEFORE any Hand action- magically or not."

The hands make the pivot work in a hands controlled pivot. Maybe it is strictly the brain knowing the intent of the hands or maybe a very small action (i'm not sure). As you can tell from the rest of the golf world, humans pay attention, to and notice more the big items (hips as opposed to the slightest hand action or feel).

The Hands train the pivot to work.
If you think the Hands need to move before the pivot can function, that it needs to move a hit a switch before any part of the body can move then you fail to see the big picture.

Both Hitters and Swingers, as Homer and Yoda teach, have the Pivot pull the Arms and Club into the Downstroke, until the Lag to load and the right shoulder to reach maximum speed, a swingers gyro or a Hitter’s muscular thrust.

What moves first in the pivot? The clearing action of Hula Hula- the hips. This is not pivot control hands as you think. The clearing allows nothing but unobstructed freedom for the hands to swing.

And I surely hope you lead your downswing with the shoulders and not the arms are hands unless you like to OTT. Perhaps over active clamps- the Hands are a problem. Close that door as soon as possible. Hips lead the Downswing because they lead the shoulders which lead the Hands- Its called PIVOT LAG. P-I-V-O-T L-A-G. One of three types of LAG.

10-19-C calls for "an "Instant Acceleration" Hip Action so that the throw out Action can immediately set up the Rhythm and take over the rest of the Downstroke sequence."

What is the Downstroke sequence? Well according to Homer in 6-M-1 in starts with the "feet in the following order: Knees, Hips, Shoulders, Arms, Right Elbow, Left Wristcock, and/or Left Hand rotation. That overcoming of Clubhead Inertia during the Start Down by the pivot with start to pull your arrow from the quiver.

The Power Accumulator release always starts with #4 which is an attempt to 'blast off' off the left arm by the right shoulder thrust. Then #1, #2, and #3.

This is what Homer wrote. This is what Yoda lifted fog from. This is TGM fact.

Can you lower the Hands then pivot? Sure, much closer to a Standard- old time- hip action, 10-14-A. Maybe this is what TT taught DG. Others say they were taught something else. I really don't care. I'd much rather hear from other students of Tom's would might be slightly removed from the "awe."

BUT... allowing the hips to clear and the pivot to overcome of Clubhead Inertia at the start of the stroke is NOT Pivot control.

First of all, I'm not a big fan of the term "uncock right forearm from the top."
Drive the hands to the plane line (however slight at the start down), yes.


Certainly, the hands don't need to move before the pivot can function. But this leads to at least tempoary control by the pivot (has an effect of the hand position). Always keep hand postion (through hand control) in relation to plane line.

With concentration first on Hula Hula, and not on hands, Hula Hula will influence the hands (have control over hands - opposite of hand-controlled).

Clubhead lag - the secret of golf calls for all out concentration on the hands, at all times. Stop creating pressure with the hands and you will surely have over the top. Hips lead the soulders. Hands lead the downswing because they are able to maintain relationship to plane line, not the hips. Lag pressure enables a controlling of the direction of the clubhead (tracing the plane line).

Take over downstroke sequence - sequence that the action of the hands control (by maintaining clubhead lag pressure).

Overall, I can't buy into terminology that states "hips lead the down swing."
This is because "hips = part of the pivot" and I cannot say "part of the pivot leads (leads meaning "in charge of") the downswing." Hips accomplish work and have motion in the downswing but I can't buy into a leading role. Pros have probably played wonderful golf with the hips in the lead, but hips in the lead, to me, is not the hands controlled pivot of The Golfing Machine. Thanks for the work on the replies. I've learned a lot.

You miss the point about Hula Hula- the hips move without the shoulders moving. If the shoulders don’t move – How can the hands be moved by them? They can’t. HULA HULA only moves the hips - nothing else. Please get that point correct. Independent movement from shoulders. Let the Hands grip the club at this point.


I spoke of PIVIOT LAG - I didn't talk about Clubhead Lag. You load Accumulator Lag on the backstroke. Crank start the Downstroke by loading Pivot Lag – at least according to Homer Kelley. Only now can Clubhead Lag PRESSURE be obtained. You don’t order it, you don’t think it. You load it. You load that Clubhead Lag PRESSURE (different from hands ahead of clubhead alignment which most the world only sees as Lag) only by loading your Accumulators and Pivot Lag. And Lag Pressure is inert- you don’t let the hands move it. Accumulators move them to prevent throw-away

The Pivot Lag is the crank of the “gear train”, the explosion of the launching pad. It is part of Educated Hands. Educate them. Get away from a pivot control take-away (shoulder turn and standard hip action) and use a Right Forearm Take-away. Remember the Magic? The gear train sequentially drags its preceding Component. And you say this is pivot control? Homer was wrong I guess. Once the Hands are Educated- they are Clamps with sensors.

I find that many are afraid to pivot because of the Hands control the Pivot axiom fearing that they are now pivot control- baloney. If you don’t pivot, throw darts.

One last point you don't see- the hip action doesn't move the hands off the incline plane. Hula Hula doesn't create a hip/Hand relationship. I'm afraid you misunderstood the word -lead. Lead in this context only means “ahead of- or comes before.” It does not mean steer or bring in a line.

You underestimate your Hands.

Having watched this debate for years now, and honestly trying not to get too caught up in it, would you agree that perhaps your argument is in many ways simply one of the different perspectives of "actions" vs "motions"?

I'm done.

Lead means to be ahead of, not to pilot or guide. Hips move ahead of the shoulders. PLAIN AND SIMPLY. And since the Hands designed and are always monitoring- the three esstenials are intact. No fkn way does any movement of the pivot relocates the hands. In fact they assure staying ON Plane since they do not have to re-locate themselves veering off and back on. That is what the Pivot is trained for. Easy access to the ball.

I leave you with this. Everything I wrote is from Homer. Everything I learned about the G.O.L.F. stroke came from Homer's Book and explainations and instruction from Yoda. According to you- they both teach pivot control. Glad you debunked the myth.

And everything that Tomasello taught comes straight from TGM....and in no hidden manner. For starters, 4-D-1 the drill with the clubshaft against the left forearm...have seen Tommy demonstrate it multiple times on video. I have yet to see another AI do that drill. How about the flying wedge drill.....or how about extensor action drill (have seen Chuck do that drill....not like Tomasello!@#$%^&*)

Tomasello quotes on hips and shoulders:

-There is no "tension" and or "seperation" of the hips and shoulders.
-The hips do not generate power they only maintain velocity.....

As Tommy said, just because you have read the bible doesn't mean you're going to heaven.

DG

Year after Year, someone shouts- 'You are pivot control Hands" without understanding the reason for a pivot. As long as the hips do not control the Hands and arms along the delivery path, as long as the Hips do not move the club after it is loaded and ready to whirl or be driven- the hands are in control.

In fact Homer said that a shoulder take-away is pivot control. The turning hips and shoulders move the club- not the Hands. Like wise on the downstroke, dropping the hands into the slot and whirling the arms the way Standard Hip action describes might be Pivot control. Standard Hip Action might be a pivot control component. Homer thought little of Standard and only listed it because it was the way golf was played fror 200 years.

But understanding might be tough. TT, at one time, had student cross out 'Hands control Pivot' in the book saying it was easier to monitor the pivot, with the same basic stroke pattern. So if even an AI of TT caliber had it wrong at one time - confusion might be the norm. Thank Goodness for Yoda shedding light and making Homer's easier to understand.

No way can anyone tell me that my pivot overrides my Hands task.

I did try to move these posts to another thread but the questions always came back here. I am not disputing TT.

And I never mention power generating from the hips. The hips do not generate power- they are part of the pivot. And Yes, they is a seperation of the Hips and Shoulders. Hula Hula- Delayed Hip Action. If you don't your pivot spacing is all wrong.

Personally- I am not an AI, but I do know a thing or two. As I said, my comments were not knocking that stroke pattern of Tom's like you think but explaining what Hands control Pivot is.

Tell Lynn that his interpreation is all wrong. I'd stay with Yoda and Lynn then YOU and Tom.

I will not enter your Magic kingdom of the right Forearm again. Just let people know that your explainations do not cover all stroke patterns- deal?

Hmmmmmm.....I must be confused....the only difference between 10-15-A and 10-15-B is the backstroke.

The interesting thing about your comment regarding the issue with the student and pivot controlled hands.....it appears the student didn't give you all of the information to why Tommy would have made such a suggestion. I know exactly why....it's in the book and I have Tomasello discussing it on cassette tape. I think if you knew the true reason you would eat your words regarding the comment, "an AI of TT caliber had it wrong at one time"...standard hip, delayed hip, pivot controlled hands, hands controlled pivot.....Tommy's kept his hands on the straight line delivery path. BOTTOM LINE. That means only one thing, his mind were in his hands (that's the basis for hand controlled pivot). They had to be or a true standard hip action would generate an angled delivery path. My guess is the student your referencing had problems keeping his/her arms on plane.



Without Tommy here to defend his position....this is all pot shots. I'm sure Homer and Tommy are looking down at this in disgust.


DG

You are sure? Evidence?

Hang in there 6B and DG.

There is still a lot about Tommy we are trying to distill and figure out.

Deep breaths, keeper going if you can.

During my three day school, Tomasello made references to Homer looking down. While teaching me the magic of the right forearm.....Tommy made the comment, I know Homer's looking down and saying, yes, it can be that easy.

I figure if Homer was looking down in 1993, I'm pretty sure they're both looking down now in between golf shots and getting a kick out of all this non-sense surrounding the little yellow book.

DG

Hula Hula
 

BTW, HULA HULA is a Component 14 concept.....not a component 15 concept. See 7-14. I see no issue with the Hula Hula and what Tomasello said about there being no seperation between the hips and shoulders....as 7-14 says....independent but coordinated.

Debating TGM is starting to feel good again.

DG

Pretty creepy bringing up TT and HK that way. Dude- tell a pill.



Here are a few things Homer wrote about the Pivot, Lag and stroke sequence. It differs from some beliefs posted above by others- I guess I just misinterpret again.

8. Hip Slide starts the down swing. (from a stroke sequence list)

Keep your body ahead of your hands and your hands ahead of the club. (that is one leading the other the right order.)

Educated Hands are those that can feel the resistance of motion --
CLUBHEAD lag. (that happens when fully loaded- Pivot and Accumulator Lag)

5. Improve one step at a time, start with the pivot. (that important, it is , yes)

Hula Hula - This flexibility allows the right forearm to remain on
plane and keeps the shoulder motion and hip motion independent. Keep these (2) separate. (not what DG reports and see SEC- it allows the right forearm magic to remain on plane- that is what the Man said- no me)

A sharp Backstroke Turn, a Downstroke Hip Slide only, (before the Arm Motion begins) encourages "On Plane" Pivot alignments.
So its - Turn, Slide, Swing. (lets see- a RFT, then a DS Hip Slide BEFORE Arm Motion begins to encourage ON PLANE Pivot alignments- Geez that Homer was a rebel. DG says no way. )

Careful:

Aiming Point - At the Top of the Backstroke - even at the End -
mentally construct a line from the Hands to the Aiming Point. Let a
careful Downstroke Pivot move the Hands precisely along this line
they will "feel" as though they remain at the top of the Stroke. Don't question that Feel - just sustain (monitor) it, all ready for Release at the preselected Release Point. Drive the Hands (Clubhead Feel) "down the line" until both arms are straight, NO QUITTING! This procedure merely utilizes a long used method for drawing freehand straight lines between two points. Using the Clubshaft as the pencil is an effective equivalent.

(Holy Fudge- Downstroke Pivot moves the Hands- WTF is Homer doing here. Okay it is a well trained and fairly careful Downstroke Pivot but move the Hands?? And they will ‘feel’ like they remained at the top- question not- just sustain and monitor the “it” and get ready for release and then drive the Hands in a down the line until both are straight? Homer, what are you saying? That the Hands are clamps before release?)


But Homer is all wrong, right?

You use Homer notes....I'll use the 7th edition. One big question, why don't those comments appear in the 7th edition. Geezzzz, I wonder why? Could they really be Homer's notes? In a pure sense of course....

DG

Cheap shot in VAIN.
 

First let me say that I’m out of your Magic Kingdom. It was very self-centered to say Homer and Tom would be so disgusted at this. What I cheap shot taken in VAIN. Lynn- remember him- said that Homer loved questions. Question are earthquakes to you, Dg.

Second- those notes came from audio tapes of Master Classes taught by Homer. This is what Homer taught to his students. The 7th Edition- in my opinion - was not written entirely by Homer Kelley. Joe Daniels should have put his name on the book with Kelley’s.

I’m told 7-3 removed the word Magic- if the edition is so dear- drop the term.

One day you will might stop hiding behind Tom Tomesello.

Bottom line. You study with Lynn....I'll study what Tomasello taught me (the most efficient centrifugal force golf swing). Then maybe one day will meet up on the golf course and see who really kicks butt. As they say, the proof is in the pudding.

"I'm told 7-3 removed the word Magic" what are you trying to say there???

DG

I've been getting Pm's because few want to get involved with this thread for the umpth time. Me- I'm a just a jerk for responding to you.
Now I have to give someone by new sticks for this post but I have to know- all those Championships you tell us you won- what were they? And when are you defending them- I'd like to "watch you make a score" (to quote Homer from a master Class- not ever written in any edition). I surely can't compete against someone with your skills but heck- I can watch. Let me know.

Yes- Lynn has explained a lot of things for many. Maybe me, the least. But this is his forum. And I won't diss TT if he had one.


As for the Magic remark- as I said, I don't own the 7th- the book of Daniels. I was given bad information by those that PM'ed me. I should have known better.

In swinging, lag pressure is initially obtained by "throwing" the Club against the Lag Pressure point at the top for drag loading (or with start down motion for Float Loading). I don't think initial club head lag, or the club head's resistance to motion, is established "only by loading accumulators and pivot lag" Just hold a club up, the hands can feel the dead weight of the club head. Just because something is inert does not mean you don't move it. You move it or direct it at the plane line via the hands (always both aiming and thrust).

Hip action that is not guided by the hands most certainly may move the hands off plane (too little or too much slide). Certainly, you can train the pivot to be nearly correct all the time - but why in the world take the chance? Get the correct pivot all the time by moving the hands, and letting the pivot respond. (note immediate response of the pivot that can indeed produce delayed hip action). I'm not picturing a movement of the hands, then a while later, movement of the hips - the action is an immediate response by the pivot.

5-0 "The hands are the 'Command Post' for all feel processing. As the stroke proceeds they dictate to the Feet as certainly as they dictate to the club "(meaning all other aspects of the stroke). Hands dictate, if the hands dictate, all other aspects can only respond.

SEC- Lag pressure is obtain three different ways- all the result of LOADING the Accumultors at the top and/or the Pivot at the start down sequence. Load and Drag. Feeling the dead weight of the club is useless if it can resist movement (like dragging baby brother) and stressed.

When Homer says to:
Start the down swing with a Hip Slide, before the Arm Motion begins to remain On Plane.
Keep your body ahead of your hands and your hands ahead of the club,
Educated the Hands to feel the resistance of motion,
Keep seperate the motion of the shoulders and the hips (Hula Hula) to allow the right forearm to remain on plane.

"Crepes Suzette!"- I'll stay with Mr. Kelley.

btw way- my pivot responses perfectly to my hands. At Start Down- like Pavlos dogs- they respond. They never let the hands move off plane with the first move. The Hands would not like that.

good luck- I'm not your dog anymore.

Tell the masses not to be afraid. The most certain, most perfect cure for the fear is in the Golfing Machine. Practice and maintain perfect hand relationship to the plane line, and you'll have a perfect pivot.

Published Work
 

And I'll stay with Kelley's published work.....

-The Primary Downward Force Vector is produced by straightening the right elbow---
-Bending and Straightening the Right Elbow will RAISE AND LOWER the Left Arm and/or COCK AND UNCOCK the Left Wrist without Bending, Flattening, or Cocking the Right Wrist.

The way TOMASELLO TAUGHT ME...right out of the book.



Tommy had the 7th edition when I studied with him in 1993. It's stated in my notes from my three day school.


DG

Is clubhead lag pressure obtained from bending the right elbow? cocking the wrist? maintaining the left arm club shaft agle? loading number 4? Couldn't you load all four and still not obtain club head lag pressure?

I'm not positive, but I think club head lag pressure is obtained by the hands feeling the dead weight of the clubhead.