True roll and loft - LynnBlakeGolf Forums

True roll and loft

The Other Game - Putting

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Old 05-16-2008, 09:01 AM
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okie okie is offline
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True roll and loft
How Homer putted

Homer Kelley Putted with an extended Left Arm and a Flat Left Wrist (Impact Fix Address Position). He saw "no reason to return to the Adjusted Address Position" (Bent Left Wrist).

He then located the Ball in his Stance so as to achieve an 'Above Center' Impact and thus a 'true Roll' (Overspin) immediately upon separation. [Note: This is NOT 'hitting up' on the Ball!] That location will be precisely at Low Point with a Reverse Loft Putter and just behind Low Point for a No-Loft or Loft Putter. How much behind Low Point? Far enough back to insure a Negative Loft ('Overspin') Impact -- and therefore not Zero Loft (No Spin or Skid) or Loft (Backspin or Lift) -- but not so far as to cause the Ball to be driven into the ground.


I am trying to figure out the ideal loft for my putter. It currently has 3 degrees (which I suspect is insufficient.) I address it with impact hands and a slightly forward leaning shaft, so I am sure my dynamic loft is less than 3 degrees. I play on an assortment of greens, mostly good quality bent, that they never shave (Oklahoma summers can be brutal!) Cameron and Maltby suggest that 4 degrees at impact is what is needed to lift the ball out of the slight depression it sits in when at rest.

So...how does the true roll technique that Homer (and seemingly every great putter) utilized square with the 4 degrees of loft neccessary to lift the ball out of the depression it sits in? Above center with 4 degrees of loft achieves the same true roll?
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Old 05-16-2008, 01:36 PM
alrenz alrenz is offline
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The idea of the golf ball sitting in a depression on the green was probably true back when TGM was first written, and helps explain why a lot of older putters had as much as 6 degrees of loft. Greens were pretty shaggy back then, but today this is not true, given advances in agronamy, maintenance and general green construction. On todays greens much less loft is needed. Yes putters have 2.5 degrees of loft, some of the Bettinardi putters have as little as 1 degree of loft. Common today of 4 degrees is probably too much.

Allan Renz
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Old 05-16-2008, 02:21 PM
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okie okie is offline
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All Greens cause depression!
I think Scotty Cameron (and a lot of high tech gadgetry) suggests 4 degrees is a good number. I think the greens have to be billiard table like not to have ball caused depression. What Homer Kelley was suggesting (as best I understand it) works better on faster greens, especially the negative loft idea. I am trying to reconcile true roll, with the need to lift the ball out of the depression which according to Ralph Maltby and Scotty Cameron is a reality. I think Phil Mickelson has quite a bit of loft, and I read that Stan Utley recommends more lof for most people.
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Old 05-16-2008, 05:31 PM
alrenz alrenz is offline
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I have studied with Harold Swash, Europes Putt Doctor, and the inventor of the Yes putter. He would disagree with those comments. The object of the putt is to get the ball rolling, how a lofted putter does that is beyond me. I saw Michelson went to a longer putter but had not seen that it was more lofted. Trying to compare greens when Homer wrote TGM and today is not relevant, and I'm pretty sure tour players are not using lofted putters. Lynn??
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Old 05-17-2008, 09:33 AM
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I need help on this
With the different schools of thought (all reputable technicians in their respective fields) you can understand my confusion. I willl always bow to a superior idea (I cannot afford not to...simply not smart enough ) I neglected my equipment since my junior days having heard the "it's not the tool its the idiot weilding it!" mantra over and over. I played college golf with one sw, a 56 degree high bounce jobbie that turned out to be 52.5 degrees! My driving accuracy declined in my sophomore year in large part due to the change from a persimmon-headed 11 degree 42 inch steel shafted driver to a metal headed 9 degree 44.5 inch graphite shafted driver...ya think! I am trying to give my mechanics (which are identifiable...thanks to TGM) a fighting chance!

What loft does Mr Swash recommend? I realize it has a lot to do with the quality of greens you play on. It is a great pity that the vari-loft technology of Edel putters comes with a hefty price tag (it will take years to embezzle $850 without my acountant/wife knowing!) So is the industry standard of 3 degrees dynamic loft a good number?

I have always putted with a flat left wrist, and tend to make better strokes on faster greens, always preferring bent to bermuda. As it turns out my effective loft may have been 1-2 degrees! This does not bode well for shaggier putting surfaces.

I played a goat track a couple of months ago. After 3 putting the first green in a pathetic fashion I went to my 17 degree hybrid for the rest of the round! Obviously, I pressed my hands forward and delofted it considerably but I did not have to change my technique radically in order to get the ball up to the hole. ALL putts get airborne...then skid...then roll out...no?
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Old 05-25-2008, 07:49 AM
alrenz alrenz is offline
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I'd say that 2-3 degrees loft is ideal. Ball position should be forward in your stance so that you strike the ball with a slight upward stroke.

Allan
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Old 05-25-2008, 08:29 AM
bond007 bond007 is offline
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Confused
Originally Posted by okie View Post
How Homer putted

Homer Kelley Putted with an extended Left Arm and a Flat Left Wrist (Impact Fix Address Position). He saw "no reason to return to the Adjusted Address Position" (Bent Left Wrist).

He then located the Ball in his Stance so as to achieve an 'Above Center' Impact and thus a 'true Roll' (Overspin) immediately upon separation. [Note: This is NOT 'hitting up' on the Ball!] That location will be precisely at Low Point with a Reverse Loft Putter and just behind Low Point for a No-Loft or Loft Putter. How much behind Low Point? Far enough back to insure a Negative Loft ('Overspin') Impact -- and therefore not Zero Loft (No Spin or Skid) or Loft (Backspin or Lift) -- but not so far as to cause the Ball to be driven into the ground.


I am trying to figure out the ideal loft for my putter. It currently has 3 degrees (which I suspect is insufficient.) I address it with impact hands and a slightly forward leaning shaft, so I am sure my dynamic loft is less than 3 degrees. I play on an assortment of greens, mostly good quality bent, that they never shave (Oklahoma summers can be brutal!) Cameron and Maltby suggest that 4 degrees at impact is what is needed to lift the ball out of the slight depression it sits in when at rest.

So...how does the true roll technique that Homer (and seemingly every great putter) utilized square with the 4 degrees of loft neccessary to lift the ball out of the depression it sits in? Above center with 4 degrees of loft achieves the same true roll?
I am trying to understand how striking a putt above center at impact is not "Hitting Up"? Is the putter being hovered or starting from a resting position on the putting surface?
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Old 05-25-2008, 10:33 AM
O.B.Left O.B.Left is offline
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Assuming you are not "steering" and the putter head is traveling along its undisturbed orbit, then the putter head will be traveling forward, out and down until low point (opposite the left shoulder in Homers putting method elsewhere for others). Past low point it will be traveling forward, in and up.

I think there are a lot of golfers who understand the beauty of 3D impact for their full shots but steer their putter along a straight line. Watching the putter head going back and through can be dangerous in this regard.

I heard that Homer putted a very worn carpet remnant in his garage. Dont know if this influenced his putting style or not. Im sure he must have putted the shaggy greens of the 60's and 70's too.
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