I have been trying to figure out the elbow plane, turned shoulder plane, pp#3 and how Brian Gay swings. Seems like every thread I have read turns into an elbow vs turned shoulder argument. Not interested in that; I am just trying to figure out what is actually happening with Brian. I understand Brian sets up on the elbow forearm plane at address. Does he then try to swing on the elbow plane? Is he trying to take pp#3 and the sweet spot down the elbow plane to impact? OR Does he try and shift to the turned shoulder and then back to the elbow going back down? Seems confusing because in the premium video with Brian, Yoda describes the shoulder turning back to "the plane" as he shows dowels going up from the forearm. Is Yoda demonstrating turning the shoulders to the shoulder plane while keeping the hands and pp#3 on the elbow plane? Just trying to make sure. Thanks.
I have been trying to figure out the elbow plane, turned shoulder plane, pp#3 and how Brian Gay swings. Seems like every thread I have read turns into an elbow vs turned shoulder argument. Not interested in that; I am just trying to figure out what is actually happening with Brian. I understand Brian sets up on the elbow forearm plane at address. Does he then try to swing on the elbow plane? Is he trying to take pp#3 and the sweet spot down the elbow plane to impact? OR Does he try and shift to the turned shoulder and then back to the elbow going back down? Seems confusing because in the premium video with Brian, Yoda describes the shoulder turning back to "the plane" as he shows dowels going up from the forearm. Is Yoda demonstrating turning the shoulders to the shoulder plane while keeping the hands and pp#3 on the elbow plane? Just trying to make sure. Thanks.
GREAT QUESTION!
I am going to give you my thoughts, but they may not be correct. I hope YODA jumps in...
I think that by setting up at address with his left wrist level, and his right forearm higher than most, on plane, that Brian Gay "feels" as though he is swinging on the turned shoulder plane throughout the entire swing, striving for ZERO plane shift. The possibly unatainable holy grail.
In reality, if you draw lines, he moves very slightly from somewhere between the elbow and TSP, to TSP, and back to that somewhere between slot on the downstroke. The other thing I think is extremely important in his stroke is how well he keeps his head centered in the tripod. Watching him on the range from caddy view, nobody does it better! It's beautiful IMHO.
As I said, please take this response with a grain of salt...
Kevin
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I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
The only thing Id maybe change is that if the Elbow is on the Shaft Plane then its an Elbow Plane by definition. This is the precision alignment of the Right Forearm Flying Wedge.
I am just trying to figure out what is actually happening with Brian. I understand Brian sets up on the elbow forearm plane at address. Does he then try to swing on the elbow plane?
Startup along the Shaft Plane which for Brian is the Elbow Plane.
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Is he trying to take pp#3 and the sweet spot down the elbow plane to impact? OR Does he try and shift to the turned shoulder and then back to the elbow going back down?
The latter but understand that the plane shift from the Elbow to the TSP is minimal for Brian Gay. In addition by establishing the Elbow Plane and the RFFW at Address he has already made the necessary adjustments to his Machine that Impact will require which will greatly increase his chances of achieving correct Impact Alignments. This is something most pros have to achieve dynamically during the shot having started elsewhere at Address. Adjustments such as waist bend, kneed bend, head position, left shoulder to ball radius measuring etc etc.
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Seems confusing because in the premium video with Brian, Yoda describes the shoulder turning back to "the plane" as he shows dowels going up from the forearm.
Normally Yoda demonstrates Standard Shoulder Turn. A Flat Turn back to the TSP with a dowel laid virtually parallel to the ground and above the right shoulder when viewed from DTL. Followed by an On Plane move of the Right Shoulder down the TSP and along a dowel representing the TSP. So Flat back and On Plane going down in Startdown. Weird but wonderful. Two different planes that the shoulder turn on. (As distinct from the Inclined Plane)
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Is Yoda demonstrating turning the shoulders to the shoulder plane while keeping the hands and pp#3 on the elbow plane? Just trying to make sure. Thanks.
No Right Shoulder to the TSP, pp#3 shifts from Elbow to TSP at Top. The Pivot and the Hands travel different paths. The Pivot the Right Shoulder turns BACK and the pp#3 the frozen Right Hand is lifted UP by the bending Right Elbow. This is the BACK and UP associated with a three dimensional backstroke. Two directions and something Yoda normally demonstrates by rubbing his stomach and patting his head at the same time. "We can do this" says he.
When using the TSP the Right Shoulder and the pp#3 , though they travelled different paths to get there, will arrive at Top on the same plane angle, the TSP. Hands to Pivot. As opposed to Pivot to Hands which would see the Pivot pull the Hands along the in direction it is traveling and therefor always under plane Startup.
The pp#3 if set on a TSP Angle at Top (a TSP angle preselected by the golfer and in accordance with the type of Shoulder Turn employed, flat back having a lower angle that will more closely approach the Elbow Plane Angle, Shaft Plane and therefore requiring a smaller shift back to the Elbow Plane prior to Impact) will allow the golfer to take his Right Shoulder down the TSP in Startdown with the Hands, the pp#3, the Sweet Spot following directly down this same plane as opposed to out over the plane like they would if they were set on a higher plane angle than a TSP prior to Startdown. This is the primary geometric benefit of using the TSP.
This is what Yoda normally demonstrates anyways and so much easier to demonstrate than it is to write about. Sorry if this is confusing. In a strange way writing about it does promote some clarity. I think, maybe.
Ah Hah! The curtain pulled back some for me now. Flat shoulder turn plane combined with higher elbow plane from address have very little divergence at top. Shoulder, hands, pp#3, sweet spot ready to go together from top that is already close. No wonder Brian Gay is so accurate (beyond the obvious talent). Please correct me if this is wrong. THANK YOU!
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